Narrative Focused Trauma Care with Mark and Michelle Hollingsworth

Mark and Michelle Hollingsworth are truth-tellers, adventure lovers, and safe space makers. In 2015, everything they believed to be true about marriage was put to the test when they found themselves walking through healing from infidelity. They rebuilt their relationship and came out of the fire stronger than ever before. While navigating our darkest and most painful season, they experienced new levels of clarity, hope, and freedom individually and in their relationship. In that season they began imagining what is now The Soul Reserve.

Episode Transcript:

Dan: Rachael, we can say that almost every marriage and the word almost is a euphemism. Almost every marriage is a mess. I know yours is, and I certainly know mine is. So the reality that as we do the work of narrative focused trauma care and that labor that we’re inviting people to consider, it’s often the case that individuals come through with the impact, hopefully deep and rich on behalf of their partner. But there are occasional mad people, mad as in crazy who choose to go through narrative focused trauma care as a couple. And we have a great privilege to be with Mark and Michelle Hollingsworth. And, you are mad. You both came through the experience of dealing with your story, your marriage, your past, your present, your future, all in the context of doing it together. So eventually we want to jump into that. Any thoughts, Rachael, before we begin to ask Mark and Michelle to enter into their story?

Rachael: Yeah. When you said mess and crazy, all I thought about was Gabor Maté, who’s a trauma specialist. He has a documentary called The Wisdom of Trauma, and a lot of it interviews his family. And of course they’re talking about what it was like being with this specialist who’s helping everyone else, but also being their dad and partner. But at the very end, him and his wife talk about the more they understand their stories, the younger they get in marriage. And that’s what I was thinking about because it gets messy the younger you get. So I look forward to this conversation and I think it’s a good mess. That’s all I’ll say. Well,

Dan: As we jump in, Mark, Michelle, give us just a beginning how you came to NFTC and then we’ll start winding in and through your lovely, broken, glorious story.

Mark: Well, I believe Michelle was attending a Story Workshop and came home and said, Hey, we’ve talked about doing this work. Applications are due tomorrow. What do you think? I said, well, how long is this application? Not knowing how long it would take. And so we dove in, we submitted the applications and we said, let’s see what happens.

Dan: Well just have to ask Michelle did the last minute thought of doing so, was that just inadvertent or was that a magically wise decision?

Michelle: No. Do you want to share the pre…

Mark: Well, we’ll get there.

Michelle: Okay. So our story in getting to sign up and why we got to that point is that we had been married for a long time, 24 years, and had great, a lot of really good things about our marriage and a lot of really just beautiful experiences to be honest. And about 24 years in, Mark went back to a high school reunion and was unfaithful. And so we hit a crisis that we didn’t see coming and it unsettled us, and I will let him speak for him. But for me, I wasn’t illusioned that we had everything perfect, but we worked really hard and we were very committed to each other. And so when, what I would call a grenade, landed in my lap, it disrupted me, to say it mildly.

Dan: To say mildly.

Michelle: So I can let Mark fill in his part. But it was then that I went to a Story Workshop in Wheaton where you were speaking, and it was after we were kind of trying to get our feet underneath us to make sense of what in the world happened, where we had been talking about, how do we learn more?

 Mark: And our life was going great, life was great for me, our kids were excelling. We had done pre-work to become empty nesters two weeks into empty nesting. I was unfaithful and I wanted to hide it. I didn’t want to talk about it. And it eventually came out. And in that process, I realized how disconnected my heart and my head were, and it began a journey of soul work. And Michelle forgave me right away. I knew God had forgiven me. It took longer to forgive myself. And so we saw a therapist and the therapist said to me, she said, sometimes God will get your attention and he’ll do it in the strongest way he needs to in the lightest way possible. Does he have your attention, and I said, yes. And so it did start us on this journey of soul work. And so we thought this would be a great step because what we really found out in the midst of the tragedy, we had almost no support, especially from church, from the church leadership, and even our friends didn’t know what to do with us. And we thought, wouldn’t it be great to be able to create something where we have a safe space for people to come and we were able to hold whatever they bring?

Dan: Yes. Well, and to again, thank you for being willing to put words to what is a heartbreak and in some sense is a wound that can be healed, but the scar in one sense never is erased. So for the two of you to in one sense, and we’ll get to the work that God has invited you to bring on behalf of the kingdom of God in a bit, but first, the category of you’re 24 years in to what I’m hearing you both say is a good marriage. And I think in some ways when there has been an affair, when infidelity often comes with a long trajectory of a not so good marriage, that’s the more standard presumption, but that’s not your story. So in one sense it becomes even more confusing. How did an event like this occur? So I would love for you to put words to how you both wrestled with that and also how the work with story work has opened up realms to be able to engage that question.

Mark: Well, for me, it felt like once the confession actually happened, I felt great. Like, Hey, she knows it’s good. And I didn’t realize that’s where the hard work really began. And where we ended up going was why did I say yes? What was the reason that I said yes? And it took me a long time to wrestle and find out. And actually going back in my story and looking at the role that shame and contempt really played in my life and how I became a performer, which in some ways has benefited us greatly because of the resilience it created. But on the other side, that disconnection that I had from my heart, Michelle and other people close to me, paid the price.

Michelle: Yeah, I mean, I think Dan, when you asked that question per lining up with story work, it’s the subtleties, it’s the nuances. We made a commitment to date nights. We made a commitment to going away together and we loved being together. And to this day, we truly love spending time together. And so when that happened, I couldn’t make sense of it, to be honest in the beginning. I mean, I didn’t know what had happened to my world because what I thought I was living in was a safe, secure, connected, respected relationship. And here’s the dilemma is that was all true. Those things were present in our relationship. But for me, what I realized, and the beauty and the gift of time and healing is at first, the easiest way to talk about it is there were days that I felt like all I could do was breathe. I had never experienced, and I had experienced grief in my life, but nothing like this where I felt like I was blown up into pieces and I could breathe every day, that’s what I could do. And so it took me time first to tend to my body, which at the time I didn’t have language for, but God in his goodness had a sense. He gave me a sense of what that meant. And so over time, what I realized is there were, as Mark just named, he lived a good portion of his life disconnected from his head and his body. And here’s the dilemma, or here’s what I realized, the dilemma. My parents are missionaries. My background is scarcity, poverty. If you love Jesus, you literally sacrifice everything. Nothing else matters. Financial things don’t matter. Your face and your body don’t matter. I mean, literally nothing matters. So I marry this man that he gets stuff done, the man has used his story, and he has become incredibly successful. I had an incredible life. So to disrupt and to demand an emotionally connected man i.e. marriage, I wasn’t willing to do that. I didn’t realize all of that, of course. But there’s a payoff for me and for us to live in this space of tolerance, acceptance, it’s just a level of intimacy, I guess. We played together well. We enjoyed being together, but being known, being safe for each other, we knew those to a particular level, but not to the level that was available to us. And so Mark being unfaithful, disrupted and invited in a way that moved us to making sense, i.e. moved us to story work.

Dan: Again, the heartache. I don’t want to in any way minimize the heartache, but there’s a sense in which both of you were operating as a good couple with a good life with in some ways your soul’s disengaged. Is that a fair way of putting it?

Michelle: 100 percent. Yes.

Dan: And again, we never say that heartache and sin is good, but the other side to it is where grace abounds so does the freedom to be able to look at the meaning of our failures. And rather than excusing, rather than justifying or explaining, it’s actually an open door to begin to go, how did I get here? And how could our marriage have come to this particular spot? Is that a fair way of putting it?

Mark: Oh yes, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because on the outside and even on the inside, I mean, our kids would say, this was a great family, things are going well. And then just to really have us really chopped off at the knees and not knowing where to go and what to do, but for Michelle to step in and forgive me and say, now let’s figure this out. And so it was a long process. It was about two years later that we ended up joining…

Michelle: Story work.

Mark: Story work. And even that conversation was, well, what happens if one of us gets in and one of us doesn’t? But we had both been doing soul work through other organizations, so we knew a bit of what we were stepping into. The biggest difference I think was I had been attacking myself versus looking at it from a place of kindness and curiosity, which we learned at 

the school, which completely different than the way I had been running my life.

Michelle: Yeah.

Dan: Well, I want to step back to not excoriating or criticizing the community that you were in yet to be able to say that you did not find resources to help you engage something of what had occurred, let alone what was happening for both of you in the process of trying to find a life of restoration. So what was happening? What was happening from your standpoint with regard to others as they were hearing and engaging something or not engaging your story?

Michelle: One of the things when I found out, so we have always and of course know since of what it was until we’re getting clearer now. We were actually five months pregnant before we got married, and we put it in our invitations and we said, if you are here, you are here to love us and here’s our story. So that started our trajectory. And so I think right now, understanding who I am and my calling, the truth is really important to me. And there’s honor and safety in truth. And so when Mark told me, which is a whole long story that we don’t have, I mean Mark’s like Michelle forgave me, that sounds so simple and like, oh, little magic wand, all is healed. Okay, it did not look like that, but we don’t have time for that today. But it was beautiful and amazing in and of itself. But I said to him, in order for me to feel safe and to feel like we’re doing this together, I need you to decide what three couples you’re comfortable telling. I can’t be in this alone. Because what I had learned by that time was evil loves isolation. He loves silence, he loves shame. And so I couldn’t make sense of anything, but the things that I had were one, we have to tell three couples you get to pick, and then two, you have to go to counseling because you keep telling me, I don’t know, I don’t know. I don’t know why I did it. I don’t know. And I said, I don’t know. I can’t make sense of that. So he shared it with three couples. And I mean, first nobody was angry with Mark.

Mark: And you weren’t happy about that.

Michelle: It eventually felt like I’m standing on my, and I didn’t want him flogged and beaten or anything, but I was like, hello?

Rachael: Yeah.

Michelle: Hello. So that they were all so kind and gracious. But at the time, we were leading the marriage ministry at a massive church in Chicago. We had leaders under us. So we told the person on staff like, Hey, this is what’s happening. When I say crickets, I’m not exaggerating. And so what we understand now is that is why we’re here, which we will get into later, but the exposure and the experience of the isolation and the invitation to shame and feeling like we were just out on an island all by ourselves, it was shocking and so sad. There was a point that I looked at Mark and said, we have a little sense of ourselves, a baby sense of ourselves. What do people do that hit this and have no sense? They drowned. Where are we, church? And I have such a heart, but it was so deeply sad and lonely and we were leading in the church. So we just were like, gosh, what happens to people that don’t have those connections? It feels like it’s despair.

Dan: Mark directions that your mind and heart goes.

Mark: Just reflecting on that, the sadness of especially Michelle feeling alone, but then us feeling alone together and a belief that we had a network that would be able to hold and support us, and then finding out that people really didn’t know what to do with us. And even as we begin to share with people, almost no one ever came back to check in to see how we were doing and anything we needed. And so we did feel a bit on an island. And so it really did accelerate our journey into learning more about us and what can we do taking those places where we’re wounded and where we’ve been hurt and be able to use that as a gift for other people.

Dan: Rachael, any directions? I know I’ve got about 400, but…

Rachael: No, and I want to make space for that. I want to name as we’re going and we can keep naming it. I just want to what profound integrity you have. And I think that. We think of integrity… We’re often taught integrity is moral integrity, being above reproach, but I’m speaking more about integrity of that truth telling that you’re talking about Michelle, that capacity to let the parts of us, the fullness of us, actually be brought into community. And that’s what I see so much even just with your marriage. And I think that is why a lot of people will stay disconnected because the truth or even the curiosity or the confusion or the disconnect actually feels safer because that’s what we know. So I just want to name your integrity. I want to make sure people are seeing what profound people of integrity you are even in where beauty and brokenness coexist together and how heartbreaking it is when systems or people within a system can’t bear that integrity. They don’t have a place to hold the tension to hold the both/and. I also just want to name your courage. It’s very clear you had a deep love for each other in the way in which you stayed facing each other. And I hear you, Michelle, there’s a lot to that story, a lot of cost, a lot of grit, a lot of days where that may not have been the case, and yet there’s just very clear that you had a deep commitment to at least see it through, to find that curiosity. But the way you put words to it, Mark, like kindness and curiosity is such a different posture. It’s not less terrifying. Sometimes shame and judgment feels safer to us because it’s familiar and it keeps us from having to step into the unknown or to enter grief or to feel exposed in different ways and not sure what people will do with that. So I do feel really grieved. It’s almost like a second trauma, the abandonment of community that you think is actually there for moments like this, right, to be the people who can stand in the gap when you need people to stand in the gap. And I can hold that. I have my own experiences of that. I know we all do, and I can hold that with a lot of grief for people that they haven’t known the kind of care to then be able to offer to others. So I love how you guys have allowed the Spirit of God to bring a lot of beauty in the midst of ashes. And that the ways in which we have that profound privilege of turning that and offering that space to other people because in some ways we’ve journeyed into the depths of horror and seen it turn to life and therefore don’t have to be as afraid of their mess, of their chaos, of their own confusion, of their shame, of their judgment. So I just wanted to take a minute to just say thank you and Dan, I’ll turn it back to you to your questions.

Dan: I would say Amen. Amen. Amen. And then back to you, Mark and Michelle, you really screwed up a lot of people. You had to have been very much idealized. You’re such attractive, good-hearted, loving-well people, and you would’ve been the pinnacle of what a good marriage looks like, what a good marriage can be, and then to have the bottom fallout. Again, I’m not justifying people’s failure of you, but in the process of idealization, there’s always deep levels of envy of I wish we had a marriage like that. So people’s confusion, but also at some level, resentment of you, you are the ideal. You have such a good marriage and now you screwed up? What does that mean for our marriage? So I’m assuming that that’s not new thoughts to you. How did you deal with people’s hatred of you?

Mark: Well, first of all, yes, we were shocked and surprised and it was unexpected, and we had never been on that journey, so we weren’t really sure what to expect. One thing that we do know for sure is that as we began to share and because of us being pregnant before we married, we knew how to enter difficult subject matter. Our transparency, I think scared people, but it also was ripping off the bandaid or the scars of past trauma, including past infidelity that hadn’t been dealt with. And so as people began, as we were exposing our story to our network of people at church and friends, it wa

Dan: Yeah, volatile with hope and volatile… and is my word hatred too strong, moderately too strong?

Michelle: No, no. I think it’s fair, Dan, but I mean, if I’m totally honest, I still had no sense of envy at that point in my life. Now, my story is silt with envy, which so much grief has been through that. But here’s right, going into how we would story work, yes, the grief, but then it moves you to your complicity and where repentance needs to happen. I mean, I will speak for me, I mean it worked for me. I didn’t have to deal with my story. I didn’t have to deal with the fragments in my marriage. My life really was so great and right, as I said in the beginning, it was great. I’m not lying. We had three great kids and we had a ton of fun, and it was a delightful, delightful marriage, but we invited people into the space of believing that we had everything figured out. And so it is the unfolding of so many layers when something like this happens. And so I think what it exposed is the structure that we had set up. I mean, we had leaders, I don’t even know how many that we were mentoring and facilitating with, and we’re really good at it. We’re really good at it. And so it’s like all of that is still true, and it really was something that was serving us in a way that appeared to be good, but that was costing us so much in our marriage and our being known and having the opportunity to rewrite parts of our stories and me always feeling like I’m too much and I’m alone. And Mark feeling like he has to keep performing in order to be loved. I mean, we avoided all that because we were doing everything else so great. And so for me, moving into story work, I had to go to war with the level of envy. My face and my body and my heart and my presence offers this world and the cost of what it has been to me and my identity and knowing the goodness of what I bring. But it’s at a very deep level, not a performance, somewhat surface level, if that makes sense at all.

Dan: It does. It does. Well, the complexity, again of what your lives brought people in the ownership that a really loving good couple who bear honor and delight for one another can have this happen, and that which almost sounds passive when I use a phrase, can have this happen. And yet it’s still a choice that’s coming out of not just sin and wrong included, but also a trajectory of a story. And so for both of you, I just sort of step back and go, what surprised you most about yourself and about one another as you began to do story work through NFTC?

Mark: Well, I’ll tell you, I mean sitting in that circle the first time with a group of men that I’d only known for hours, and then hearing how all of our stories feeling in my heart as I connected with the man who was a young boy in the back of the ambulance, the man who was bullied on the playground, the man who was shattered by the abuse of his father, the bond that was created just in the first few hours of being there and learning all about attunement, containment, repair of rupture, the whole process. I remember the first night Michelle looking at each other in the hotel room and just going, what just happened? Why are we here? And then to say we get through it after one year and we say, let’s do it again. Let’s go back for more.

Michelle: And somehow they kept accepting us.

Mark: Yeah, what do we do if we don’t get accepted? I don’t know. But it was interesting in the second year we looked around the room because there had been other couples with us. We said, I think we’re the only couple here. And I think it is because it is, as you said, dangerous territory to choose to do this work together.

Dan: Yeah, yeah. I can say though quickly and put it aside, having Becky gone through the process of going through NFTC one and two, let’s just say it ruined our marriage and a lovely gracious, and she would say The Allender Center saved her life and our marriage. And I’m like, it was that bad. What are you talking…? No, no, just say it was helpful. Don’t overstate things because things were fine, weren’t they fine? And the point being, it is such a revelatory process when, and I can go back to Rachael’s very strong words that I concur with, it takes incredible integrity and honor and courage to step into where angels fear to tread. And that’s true for most marriages. We may have a sense of our story and the impact of our story, but to actually do the hard work that you have done both through therapy but also through this training process, it’s so sweet and it’s just such an honor to be with you both. But I would love to move to, well, alright, so what are you doing now? What are you doing as a result of all this brokenness and beauty?

Michelle: I like to say that, well, we kind of talked about it. We are a hot mess. I mean, we are a hot mess. And I mean we have years of story work now behind us and years of therapy and years of the revelation and the grace of God. And we are still a stinking hot mess. So I say what we do is we invite people into our hot mess to be with them in their hot mess. I mean, I’m being silly and playful, but for real, one of the first things that we say when we either meet with new clients or we’ve had some intensive here at our house, we share our story very briefly and we look at them and we say, one of the reasons that we share our story with you is because we want you to know who you are actually with. And you are with two very broken people who have had to repair and repent, but we have stayed at the table. If you stay at the table, there’s hope, but it requires both to stay at the table. And so honestly, that is all we do. We set the table. God has been so gracious to us in so many ways, even the conversation of how Mark being unfaithful started, there was such goodness in how that was set up. It was like there’s so many things that we look back and go, God, you were so kind to us and it requires us to join. It requires us to participate. And so it’s like we just want people to know that we can be really good people that are really broken and we can fight for each other’s goodness, and that is what we do.

Mark: Yeah, I think one of the things that makes it unique is that we do marriage coaching with couples together and people are like, wow, that’s interesting because we get the female and the male perspective, it offers both to be able to hold whatever they bring that we’ve experienced. And then we do life coaching separately, but we do story groups together as well. And we’ve done what we call a 1.0 story group, a 2.0, a 3.0, and people keep coming back for more. And we’re doing story work with married couples. And so being able to sit in a circle, mostly online, but sit in a circle where other people are caring for your spouse and you don’t have to do anything, and to be able to make connections of the way they’re showing up in their marriage because of things that happened to them 20, 30, 40 years ago. The love, the growth that we’ve seen in relationships is amazing. And so we really enjoy it and it’s hard work, but in the end it’s like, wow, this is so worth it.

Rachael: And just to be clear, this is something you started doing as a result of all this work and it’s separate from the marriage ministry you were a part of. So this is actually like our own, and it’s called the Soul Reserve, correct.

Mark: The Soul Reserve. That’s correct. 

Rachael: So wow, okay. I love hearing all the different ways that you’re getting to incorporate your story, story work, soul care, pastoral care. It’s really powerful.

Dan: Well, and the comment that you made in terms of sometimes other people need to care for your spouse in a way in which you haven’t lost the opportunity to do so. But to have somebody else step in and offer your spouse the goodness that you can watch your spouse receive, I would say that specifically what Becky saw happening in terms of stories that I didn’t handle well or just thought were resolved, that she needed to reopen in the presence of a small group where those realities were addressed in a different way that then were brought back to me. Not with so much like “you screwed up” though you did, but more like now will you enter. So I think oftentimes we think our spouse wrongfully and wickedly, we should be all and everything to one another, and that denies the necessity of the people of God being the people of God on behalf of each person in a marriage as well as a marriage. So I’m really thrilled that you underscored that and important to know what courage it again to be able to engage marriages in the way that you both have.

Rachael: And I love, we stay at our house like, alright, hot mess express over here. Who’s getting on board? Let’s do this. And I love, I think it’s back to that sense of what Gabor Maté was saying about him and his wife. The more they do story work together, the more they grow in intimacy the younger they get. And there is that sense of, it’s such a paradox that we think that healing and more intimacy will make things simpler and cleaner. But it sometimes gets a lot messier because you’re not just dealing with the adult in the room, you’re dealing with the adult in the room who holds stories that are five years old and 16 years old and 32 years old. And when all those developmental parts of us are welcome to the table, not with free reign, not without integration and the ways we kind of get to bring our full wisdom, but it’s like the amount of times Michael and I have been in a conflict where the language we’re using is so young and just young parts of us are present. But how powerful that is to get to see why certain patterns or styles of relating, they don’t just happen in a vacuum. They’re not just a part of our personality. They’ve been shaped and there’s such a different compassion you’re able to find and have a certain different level of grace you’re able to have when you understand how someone’s beauty and brokenness came to be. But man, sometimes it’s messy. So I love that you’re putting words to that.

Michelle: Most of the time it’s messy, Rachael, I would say most of the time. But I think that’s it, right? For us, the invitation from story work was with my story being disconnected from my body for a different reason than Mark being disconnected from his body, being able to go, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. What is happening in my body? Why is my stomach, why is my chest feeling heavy? Why am I clenching my jaw? Our bodies are such good guides if we can pay attention and make sense of them. And what we found in our story, which i.e. we find in most of our clients is they have no idea or they are dismissing what their bodies are inviting them to or they can’t make sense of it. And so right in the storytelling process, and when we teach on attunement and containment on shame and contempt, weird helping them connect it in their bodies. So then when they’re sharing a story, we always are like, remember, we’re not excusing. We’re making sense of. We’re not excusing bad behavior. We are not excusing that Mark was unfaithful. That is unexcusable, let’s say. You know what I mean? But story work moves me to, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. Of course then forgiveness and repentance and repair happens, but it moves you to an awareness and a compassion and an invitation that has been profound for our marriage. And I make a judgment for our clients since they all keep coming back. So I think there’s something they’re getting in this process that is life giving to them. And I would say it’s some of that of the beautiful understanding and compassion and it’s like it is the tangible love and grace of God. And I’m not sure why we don’t have more of that, especially in our Christian circles. So to me, this lines up with what I imagine God to be.

Mark: And Rachael, you’re talking about those younger parts of you showing up when you’re in the discussion with Michael. And for so many men that I meet in story work outside of story work, there’s a hatred of the younger part that has existed for most of their life. So seeing a man switch from hating his younger self to loving and accepting, I mean when that happened inside of me, it opened up a whole new world. I used to hate and despise the 17-year-old Mark and the younger Mark and would minimize all of these things that were happening in my life versus being able to hold love and accept and know that that care is still needed decades later.

Rachael: That’s Right.

Dan: And you to become the playground, not only for being able to grow a greater sense of honor and intimacy for the two of you, but for your family. And obviously if you can see the ripple effect, it is well beyond your lives and your children’s lives. But the reality is it came due to a deep and radical disruption. And in so many ways, I think what many marriages are committed to is avoiding that kind of disruption. And again, not obviously saying you need to have an affair in order to have a better marriage. That’s ridiculous. But there has to be something that in one sense cuts below well below the cuticle level deep into if we use the language of body, you got to cut deep into the body that will then bring the factors, the stories to the surface. And you two have done that and you’re offering that to others. So we want to at least be able to say NFTC one and two and three, the whole shebang. It’s a good thing. I love it. But we ain’t the only pizza place in town. There are a lot of people who are doing good work, including you. So I want people to know, and we’ll have this, but I’ll say it out loud, the soulreserve.com that’s your website. That’s a way to enter into your work and your lives. But what I wish, especially as we end, is I would love that there would be a hundred more, a thousand more. I can show you that I can do more than that number, but let’s just leave it at that a hundred more, a thousand more. Mark and Michelles who have the integrity and the courage to enter into the dark, dark shadow places of each of our hearts and do the hard work of pondering. And whether or not you create a lovely labor like yours or just being good neighbors that are able to tell true stories that are broken, but also beautiful and the redemptive arc. That’s where we come back to say again to the two of you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for heartache. Thank you for hope, and thank you that you are not willing to merely live an ordinary, but instead a very mad life on behalf of the gospel.

Michelle: Yes, yes. Thank you. Thank you to both of you. And I will just say that I do think the Allender Center is our favorite pizza, though.

Dan: That’s very kind. Well, you can find both thin crust, but also, okay, I better stop at this point. Thank you both. Thank you both.

Michelle: Same you. It was great to be with you.