Narrative Focused Trauma Care with Stasi Eldredge

We’re kicking off a 4-part series where we’re inviting you to join us in listening to real stories from those who’ve gone through Narrative Focused Trauma Care training with the Allender Center. Through candid conversations with these remarkable individuals, our goal is to give you a glimpse into the profound impact of saying yes to this life-changing experience.

First up, we’re chatting with Stasi Eldredge. Stasi is a multifaceted individual – an author, speaker, and integral part of the leadership team at Wild at Heart. She’ll take us through the moment she felt compelled to join an NFTC training cohort, driven by a desire for healing and a deeper connection with God. Stasi reflects on how confronting past traumas reshaped her, moving from a sense of being weighed down by old wounds to discovering freedom and compassion within those painful memories through encounters with Jesus.

About our guest:

Stasi Eldredge loves writing and speaking to women about the goodness of God. She spent her childhood years in Prairie Village, Kansas, for which she is truly grateful.  Her family moved to southern California back in the really bad smog days when she was ten.  She loved theater and acting and took a partiality to her now-husband, John, when they were friends in high school. Stasi earned her bachelor’s degree in Sociology from San Diego State University, which she attended primarily because it was close to the beach.  She became a Christian her junior year in college and dove into the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  After graduating, Stasi joined Youth for Christ, heading up a ministry to pregnant teenagers and teen mothers.  She has been active in ministry ever since, including theater ministry, crisis pregnancy center ministry, women’s ministry, and children’s ministry. The Eldredge family moved to Colorado in 1991.

Stasi loves the joy and freedom that comes from knowing the passionate, stunning love of Jesus Christ and lives to see others come to know him more deeply.  She loves worship music, time to bake, celebrating life, getting lost in a good novel, baths, walking in the woods, hearing her sons’ laughter, the sound of wind in the trees, a good cup of coffee, the smell of the earth after it rains, a powerful turn of phrase, animals in the wild, gardens, freshly mowed grass, family traditions, cherished friendships, the Tetons, rivers, mountain lakes, the grace and beauty of horses, the affection of her dog, and most of all, her family and her God.

Episode Transcript:

Dan: Folks we’re in a process of letting people know about Narrative Focused Trauma Care, and the work of the Allender Center. And we do that. Let’s just be quite clear in some form, it’s just a warm advertisement. But on the other hand, what we get to do is play in the context of the glory of human lives and the glory of how Jesus shows up in the context of human lives. And today, especially for me, I won’t say less for you, Rachael, but for me, oh my gosh, this is just a very special experience and to introduce Stasi Eldredge, who is a New York Times bestselling authoress. And I could go through the books, many books, certainly beginning with Captivating. But I just have to say though, I’ve read all her work and certainly have deeply appreciated all your work, Stasi. Defiant Joy for me, it’s been one of those books that at the time, such a necessary engagement with how my defiance was actually almost opposed to joy rather than indeed living out joy. So it is a thrill to have you here and to say beyond all the gifting of heading up women’s ministries that just one of the most amazing ministries in the world, Wild at Heart. I’d also add you really are one of my best friends, and so the gift of having you on, that’s just a very special gift and especially given it’s your day off even more so. Thank you for being with us.

Stasi: Oh my goodness. It’s an honor to be with you both. I’m with two people that I love, so hooray. I love that we get to have a conversation wherever God leads it.

Dan: Yeah. Well, let’s just start with the relationship between you and Rachael. So Rachael, just step in and begin to talk about this unique woman.

Rachael: Well, I mean obviously I should name that Stasi Eldridge. For me, my introduction to you was certainly through your books in my teenage years and college years as an emerging young woman, I had been a Christian for a long time, but was on my own journey of coming out of a really fundamentalist context where having a more emotional, love-filled, life-giving relationship with God had been lost a lot in some of the weeds of my spiritual formation, though I would say my childhood spiritual formation, I was in a really lovely context that had a wild kind of robust understanding of little kids’ spirituality. So that was my first encounter of you. But I had the profound privilege of journeying with you through your experience of Narrative Focused Trauma Care as a facilitator, and was honestly quite nervous to meet you at first because I just felt like, oh, I want her to have an incredible experience. And also, anytime you are meeting an author that’s meant a lot to you, that’s how you know them. And you don’t often get the privilege to get to experience more of their robust humanity. And one of the things I just so love about you is you are incredibly playful person and you’re so wise and so a deep well of a woman, but you also have an incredibly playful presence that I just found so delightful.

Stasi: Thank you, Rachael. Okay, my turn to tell the story also, there are many groups and the NFTC program, but I had the best one. By far. I don’t know, I didn’t even talk to other people, I just know it. So just to go back, it’s amazing to me that you knew a little bit about me. I didn’t even know that then. So that’s awesome. I am a woman who takes her healing really seriously. I want to love others well, and I have bumped up against my own brokenness many times and then pursued Jesus in different avenues of how can you meet me here? What about this? And I was on a walk, I remember it very well when Jesus said, I want you to do the program. And I was surprised and excited and a little scared because I knew it was going to require me going to some a depth that I hadn’t before and engage both the beauty and the tragedy of my own story. But my desire overcame my fear to follow his intention, also to remove any the blocks, some more of the things in my own life that blocked me from believing and receiving his love. And I remember well going into our first time as a group, Rachael and meeting everyone, and I’m actually still in relationship with a few of those people eight, nine years later. And they kind of were asked, why are you here? What made you choose to come? And all of them, because they wanted to love others better. They wanted to engage other people’s stories, they wanted to serve them better. They were all outward focused. And it came to me and I said, yeah, I think other people are going to benefit, but I’m here for me.

Dan: Amen. Amen. Again, that is so you, again, the interplay between playfulness, my children still, I mentioned that we got to see one another recently to one of my children and immediately saying, I got to see John and Stasi. And immediately one of them said, “I love the way they danced at Amanda’s wedding.” It’s almost like all we have to do is mention your name and the next image is the wild, playful engagement in the midst of this really sweet time. But nobody, I mean of all, I don’t know how many people were there, a hundred people, nobody comes to mind with regard to dancing. It’s not that I suspect you’re the best dancers in the world, but…

Rachael: Maybe, Dan. They might be.

Dan: But the fact that they sensed life, life, life at its flooding, sweet river of life, pouring forth. So when you ponder again, the fact that you know there’s life that comes in and through and with and for you and also that something of your own brokenness, I’m sure a lot of people are going, well, that mature of a woman can’t be that broken. And yet you have an honesty about your own brokenness that doesn’t deny the life-giving presence, but has that honesty. I don’t know if I have a question as much as I don’t know where that takes you.

Stasi: Oh my goodness. Honestly, it’s too long of a story. But Jesus just came for me in the most profound way a month ago, uncovering and healing things that I didn’t know I needed. We’re on a journey, and I think it’s a great gift not only to your own life, your own relationship with God, but your community, your relationships to again, take it seriously. Your healing, it has such an effect on your walk with God and your secret life with God is the greatest thing you have to offer anyone. So in order for that to flourish, you want everything he has for you in the right time. So maybe 20 years ago, it wasn’t the right time for me to do the program, but when he said, now I knew it was the right time. And in fact, in knowing that we were going to have this conversation together, this you write, you do incredible amounts of reading that stretch my brain and my thoughts and my heart. And I will tell you that one of the books I literally threw across the room because it made me so mad, but you also have to write stories engaging your own history. And I reviewed those today. Okay. So I wrote these a while ago, and it was incredible to reread them. And they are still true, and they still inform the woman that I am today, and they’re still used to help me step into who I am to become.

Dan: What did you learn from looking back and what?

Stasi: Oh my goodness.

Dan: Well, I think just to say, especially for those of us who write, and I don’t mean just write books but write, there are times where I’ll look back even six months, let alone a year or more and be able to go, wow, who was that person? And yet there’s sometimes a conversation almost between me who wrote, who was a different man even a year or two ago versus the one reading. And that dialogue can be troubling but fascinating. So I’m just curious, what was the interaction between you and you?

Stasi: Well, I think in the process and looking back, it was such an invitation to be kind in my own evaluation of my life and my way to live in the world, the way I needed to protect myself from harm, the way I engaged other people in my own evaluation. I was pretty harsh on myself with a lot of shame, a lot of judgment. And then to have the invitation to hold up a different lens to the story of my childhood, of formative events of what my parents were like to name it, to name my place, and my story of origin, my family of origin, where I, all of it, all of it helped me be kind and offer myself mercy and not blame, but understanding and compassion. Some of it has shifted in these last eight years and what I see, but not most of it. And I think the revelation of honor. Of honoring my own experience, honoring my own story was profound. And this was one of the incredible things of having Rachael as the group leader amongst these other people who were in a position of writing their own stories and sharing with vulnerability and honesty that sometimes blew me away, their level of honesty. It was such an invitation to take, to be honest myself, and then to learn how to listen, how to attend to them. I remember Rachael saying once at the greatest gift you can give another person is your attention. So to actually not be distracted and focus in and really listen was such a gift. And when they would do that to me, it was amazing. There was a lot of Kleenex in that room. And what you also knew was when you did it wrong.

Rachael: Oh no.

Stasi: Well lemme fix you or lemme tell you what I think is happening. It was like, wahwah. It just fell. There’s a shift in the room. Or when somebody would do it to me, it’s like, nice try. Let’s back up. Let’s try it out again. We were learning, and I love that you call it play. There was the freedom to learn in a safe environment. Yeah.

Rachael: I’m just laughing because that’s part of my growth edge was as a facilitator because I have no poker face either. So when something fell, there was no me. Some of my colleagues are much more graceful in tending to the moments where we’re in a big growth moment. And I definitely the person who’s like, what did you just say? Can we take a step back? My face is such a truth truthteller for good and for ill.

Stasi: It’s a gift.

Rachael: Something you said that it made me think about. Well, one, that gift of kindness, kids, especially when we’re bringing childhood stories, because kids are such great observers, but when we’re young, we don’t have the luxury or the cognitive development to be more thoughtful interpreters. And so of course, so much of the ways we survive our world is we interpret in ways that are rot with shame. And then of course we know we have an enemy that just takes that wound and wants to exacerbate it. So there’s something there about being able to offer kindness, a kind interpretation, a kinder interpretation, but also just your sense of how stories, they remain our stories, but that they do evolve. There are certain stories I know I’ll be telling for the rest of my life because they still hold such deep meaning and more healing for me. And I think sometimes that’s hard for people to, we don’t like that because we want to get in, excavate, do the work and move on. There’s such a temptation with healing in our healing journeys. And there’s something about story work when we do have a posture of kindness and honor that is like you start to step into it and you go, oh, I’m going to be returning to these memories and these moments again and again and again. And there will probably be new things for me to discover and to learn and to heal from.

Stasi: I bet you guys hear this a lot because in doing this, sometimes I would get hit with people saying, don’t do it and get hit with the scripture. The old has gone, the new has come, turn face forward, without an understanding of how you have to scoop, how you have to look back, how you have to scoop up and bring it along, yourself along.

Dan: Healing implies that there is something wrong from yesterday or the day before. A broken arm doesn’t occur in the present. In one sense, then to be healed. The broken arm now has a future, but it has a past. And the implication of, I just had this experience as a very young believer of literally a friend that I got to know who had a broken arm, but because of his family, they refused to provide medical treatment. So he had learned, the bone had healed and he had learned to adapt. And it became a metaphor for me, and I’m sure for many others because it’s such an obvious one. He had learned to make his arm work in the way that it healed, but not well healed in a way that was not consistent with the designs of God. So we all have the capacity for this adaptive appearance of healing that actually isn’t healed. And one of the questions that had come in my young knowing of him was whether or not he was willing to go back to a physician who would break his arm again. And at one sense, it sounded like he had a good life, he had learned to make the adaptation, and yet there were things particularly because he had begun to play golf and he couldn’t adapt. And so the question of this somewhat silly sport, do I really want to come back into season of long healing in order to do what my heart desires? And he made that choice, but what an agony to have to address a past that had not been addressed well, to now be addressed, to be able to give him a fundamentally different future. And I think that’s the gambit that we’re all in the middle of. How much do we really believe that Jesus wants, not just good but the best, the absolute best for us? And it’s going often to require a return to healing that’s not healing in order to excavate open the door and begin a process that is meant to be so… Oh my gosh. At some points I just go, oh, let’s do this, let’s do, and he’s like, Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. You’ve got today. We’ll speak about the days ahead and the days ahead, but the healing that is available today is so sweet and the cost great, but the glory better.

Stasi: The glory better. So worth it, so worth it. The invitation is always, furthermore,

Dan: I just can’t help but ask. I’d love to hear how, because Rachael, here you are with again, just a…

Stasi: Her star person, her favorite person ever in a group.

Rachael: I love it.

Dan: I’m wondering what you had to go through because a iconic presence used so deeply in the kingdom of God, and you’re a younger woman. But I’ll also say in terms of my experience with both of you, both of you have this, oh my goodness, just deep sense of the unseen world, not only in terms of evil’s intent, but far more the reality of that winsome oftentimes somewhat quiet, sometimes quite loud, call into the presence of the goodness and glory of God. So both of you are, and again, language I would say mystics women who listen well to the human heart, but listen even more to the heart of God. So I’m just curious about what the interaction was like between the two of you.

Rachael: Honestly, because holding space for a group of people who are courageous and foolish in the best kind of way to step in with strangers they don’t know and bring stories that they’ve likely not written down before this time, or if they have, they’ve done something in a therapeutic setting or a pastoral counseling or spiritual direction type setting, maybe not group work, that’s such a sacred honor. And I take it so seriously that in some ways it’s almost like as much as I was like, oh gosh, I just really want Stasi to have an amazing experience and do I have the right gifts to offer that to her the minute someone steps into that room? Because this was pre-COVID, so we actually did NFTC in person, and I know we’re going to have some opportunities to open up a hybrid opportunity in the future, but when someone entered that room, it was almost like we entered a different dimension. And I just felt a sense of this is your space, and my job as a facilitator is to hold this space with as much wisdom, like kindness, ferocity that is granted to me, so that whatever work Jesus wants to do with you, I’m doing the work to be a good midwife in this moment with the spirit so that that work can happen. And I think the minute Stasi said that, you said, I’m here for me, I thought, all right, we’re going to be fine. I think my biggest concern for you was, would you have the freedom and permission in your own self, especially in a group of people who might be aware of who you are, to it get to be your space. And there was something about that declaration that I think invited our group to also be like, alright, we can commit to that too. And so again, yeah, there’s something that happens when it’s in the best kind of way, a level playing field, even as a facilitator, I love when the spirit is moving through someone else and saying the thing that maybe I’ve even been trying to say, but the way they say it is received by the person who needs to hear it. And it’s just, there’s so much you learn. And so I just felt like such a privilege and I just took it very seriously because I know that you are someone who’s often pouring out to others, and that’s what you’re called to do, and that’s a part of how you’re gifted. And so to get to be someone holding a space for you to get to be poured into and receive care just felt like a privilege of a lifetime. And I feel that with every person who says, I’ll entrust my story to you for a season. It’s just like, okay, privilege of a lifetime.

Stasi: Yeah, it’s so holy

Dan: I’m curious for you, Stasi, and again, I know the answer, but I can’t help but ask, but you’re sitting with a younger woman who you probably sense has some of her own unique eccentricities. You’d agree, Rachael?

Rachael: Yeah, it’s fine. I know I’m weird. It’s cool.

Dan: So given that, I’m just curious if you remember what it was like in those first encounters with her.

Stasi:I do. Rachael has a weightiness in the spirit. There was never any feeling of she’s a younger woman, maybe she’s not. And it felt like she was ahead of me and she had completely everything that she needed for me to rest and to being in that group and trusting. And there was particularly one woman who I really liked as well in that group who was a little, when I came in the room because she knew who I was and I had meant something to her, and that was dispelled in the first 15 minutes. I wasn’t there as a teacher or an author or a speaker or here, let me… I’m here alongside to share and to walk along and go with whatever Jesus has for us, why we’re here, we’re willing to be incredibly vulnerable and go wherever he leads us. Which meant going back to pain, going back to tragedy, and sitting in that sacred terrain of one another’s stories. And Rachael held it all so well. I trusted her implicitly, I mean immediately just trusted her implicitly. There was never any doubt in my mind. There was never, I just, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I love you, Rachael. You forever hold in my heart because of what I got to journey with you for that year.

Dan: Well, the interplay of how humility has to be present in order to invite engagement and care, let alone truth and kindness. Yet the intersection between humility that is, I am desperate, doesn’t feel like, but in fact is such phenomenal courage to indeed, in one sense step well outside of the realm of, again, comfortability and that choice to open your heart. Very humble, incredibly courageous. But I think for many people in the humility and at one level, desperation for more of the work, more of the healing of God, we sometimes don’t feel or sense or even post-dictively look back and say, that was incredibly so. I’m just curious, Stasi, how you would name your own courage?

Stasi: You know what? I applaud my ability and desire to jump in with both feet. I wasn’t there and I didn’t, I’m very serious about my own healing too. I want everything. So I knew it was a confidential group. I could come with the mess and know that I was being shepherded well, so it was a risk. It was courageous, and I bless that. And it is very vulnerable beforehand, during, after a little bit, you need a little care just to do it. And I know for me, I would really like if life had just stopped, if everything else had been just y’all take care of yourself while I am doing this. But it ended up for me being unbelievable, like life altering tragedies around me in my closest relationships during it. And so I look at it and I wonder what was it like for me to be there in the midst of that? And my last engagement with Rachael was with tears just streaming down my face and her just with tears as well. And what a gift that is. So I mean, courage is with heart, live with courage, live with your heart that you can live without it, but why your life is worth living and you need your heart with it. So that would encourage other people too, in safe places, with wisdom, risk.

Dan: Well, you had a very unusual co participant in that group. Am I correct or am I forgetting? I may be forgetting.

Stasi: I’m not sure.

Dan: Yeah, not in your group group, but in the larger domain of the people who are there, the larger group. Am I forgetting if so?

Stasi: Are you talking about my husband showing up?

Dan: No, I’m talking about your son.

Stasi: My son. No, my son did not show up during the group.

Dan: Oh, not the group.

Stasi: He did it though. Sam did go through the NFTC program either the next year or the following year.

Dan: Okay, well then I am indeed. But let’s just keep on going and go. What was it like having Sam go through, I mean, mother, son, maybe not at the same time, which I thought in my own little imagination, I remember you both being in the same group, but no, not group, group, but in the large group,

Stasi: What do you call that? Cohort?

Rachael: Cohort.

Dan: Cohort. That’s the word.

Stasi: We found it. Well, it was amazing having him do it. Because I knew what he was… first off, he didn’t have to buy all the books. That was really helpful.

Rachael: See, very playful. And frugal.

Stasi: He did want to know which one I threw across the room. So I let him guess. And then what happened was in our own dynamics, I knew the stories and he was curious about my stories, and I would not share all of them with him. But there was one that I would, and because of his own going through this with you guys, he sought me mid-speaking and asked, how old do you feel right now, mom?

Dan: Oh.

Stasi: And I said, 12, why? Why are you so perceptive? But he didn’t, I mean, it was with such kindness. So him understanding, him going through it, us having this kind of same framework and language and shared experience has been amazing.

Rachael: Well, and that kind of leads me to a couple of questions I have. You could choose your own adventure, but it’s kind of circling back to what you named about. Some people saying, don’t do it. Nothing good can come from bringing up the past. God’s making you new. And it just makes me one that I totally get how people have in some ways the broken bone metaphor. That’s how they’ve been okay with in some ways feeling like God doesn’t care about the heartache, or maybe God won’t show up in the ways that we most desperately long for. But I would be so curious, how did engaging painful stories in your life… maybe not how it did it, but did it shift anything in your relationship with God? And did it shift how you were able to be with other people in tragedy?

Stasi: That’s the question, isn’t it Rachael? And the answer is yes. I use that analogy. The broken arm is amazing. What I will use is the event didn’t change in my past when I look at it or write a story about it or share it with someone else, or get new insight, it still happened. And for some of the hard stories that we’re looking at, death entered in and something died. Well, Jesus came and he enters into that story, and it still happened, but the sting of death is removed. So it’s no longer something that cripples me or that I have to be ashamed of. But it’s something that again, for compassion and understanding to my own life, and also sometimes go, I don’t have to operate the same way any longer. I see how I’ve been acting in a self-protective way out of fear and in that withholding love and care from others and the invitation, you actually, you can be well there and Jesus can enter into that. The sting of death can be removed. And then the hope that I can offer people in that space of there’s more, and we don’t have to do a cycle of repeat. We don’t have to continue suffering from wounds that we received in our past. And so I love what it has done in my encouraging other people to risk engaging and go where God is leading. It may not be just like, look at everything. No, no. It’s a particular walk with him, with what he’s revealing, where he wants you to go because there is life to be had. There is the resurrection from the dead. There is more available. So yeah, shout that from the mountaintops. That’s the hope of the gospel right now.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. With that freedom to desire with, again, the humility of knowing I know Jesus so much better today than I did I think even about a week ago.

Stasi: Yes.

Dan: And yet each and every moment holds something of this delicious, almost hor d’oeuvre delicious sense of if the hor d’oeuvres are this good, what must the meal be like? That’s just ahead. And that so choice not to come to some either arrogant assumption, I’m good, or what’s more true for me is I’m not sure. I believe that there could be more on my behalf. And to wrestle with the interplay, both of fear and arrogance, and then to be able to say, no, I’m certainly not wanting to give into fear and no more so, and to arrogance and to be able then to be disposed to receive gives such a freedom then to be able to give. And that’s some of the play that again, we won’t account for, I don’t know how many trips, vacations, times together, but I’ll just say that I would not be the man I am without you, Stasi.

Stasi: Oh, nor me the woman I am. I’m immensely grateful.

Dan: You are persistent, passionate, playful, disruptive, so kind. It’s one of those remarkable gifts of a lifetime to have your presence and wisdom. And I know that’s the case for so many others, which I celebrate. And that’s in part where that whole strange reality of you didn’t plan this. This wasn’t something that was your vocational thoughts as probably a 17 and 18-year-old. But at least to be able to say in the broadest words, what’s the trajectory that you would see your life being? When you think about your presence on the earth? How do you reflect on your remarkable presence?

Stasi: Okay, I’m absolutely going to answer that question. I’m going to buy time for my mind to work by getting an opportunity to say to all these people. But Dan, you bring tears to my eyes with what you just said. What an incredible, I mean, it’s hard to believe that. I mean, humility, honor that I got to play a role in your life in Becky’s life when I am so on the receiving end of your deep walk with God, your unique way, your brilliance. I could go on and one day I will, and there will come a day when you will get to hear it from everyone in the celebration. I will be in the front row. So there, I got to say that the trajectory, how do I see the trajectory of my life? It’s really tempting to go, okay, I’m going to be 65 this year. And the world would say to me, time to pull into the cul-de-sac and garden and perfect your muffin making. And you know what? I love to garden and I plan on stealing my grandchildren’s hearts with my baking ability. So none of that is not good. But the part that isn’t good is saying, I’m sidelined now when that is not the case in the kingdom of God. And as you know, I’m kind of loving Psalm 92 right now where it says, I get in their old age, they’re going to bear fruit. Their leaves are going to be green. So I am actually curious about what God has for me. And in my work here at Wild at Heart, I’m actually stepping into more responsibility. We’re expanding our women’s ministry. I’m excited for what the future is holding, and the doors are widening there. God is asking me to write. I’m kind of been a little disobedient, we’ll say, because he’s been asking me to write a particular thing and I’m yielding again. So what I want this trajectory of my life to be is to continue to know Jesus so deeply that we share a union and oneness that at this point in my life, I didn’t even know it was possible. I want to step more and more and more into that with every breath that I take, and then offer others to allure them to his beautiful heart and his expansive love that we will never know the end of. So let that be the trajectory of my life.

Dan: Oh, glory be. And I don’t know if you have any other thoughts, Rachael, but all I would wish to add is I have seen a privilege where we go, I don’t know how I ever came to deserve a front row seat, but I’ve got one. And I get to see that trajectory. Do you know the word contrails? The vapors that come from behind. And it’s like, I don’t just see the contrails. I get to be pretty near that we’re in that plane as it spreads the mark of its glory. And in all that, I just go, we need one another. We need to have people. I need people like you to be able for my own heart to say, oh, I want to be like this woman. And to have mutuality in that process of I want to be like you. No, I want to be like you. It’s not envy. It’s the honor with gratitude of admiration that comes because you see the living presence of Jesus. That’s what community is meant to be.

Stasi: Yes.

Rachael: One of my favorite things you’ve said is I take my healing really seriously. And I think I see a testament to that even in how you hold to the trajectory of what’s possible for this season ahead. And as a woman entering my forties who already feels like maybe it’s time for me to retire, I just find great hope in that, that there’s a lot of life, God willing, left, and there’s a lot of healing possibility left. There’s no demand, but there’s opportunity. And I like that nature of being alert to the love of God that we will never see the end of in this season of life. That is very compelling to me. So thank you.

Dan: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Stasi.

Stasi: Oh my goodness. But it’s a delight to get to talk with you.