Men, Vulnerability, and the Path to Connection with Jamie Haigh and Blake Roberts

by on February 13, 2026

What if the freedom you long for is hidden in the 3% you’re afraid to share? This week, Dan and Rachael are joined by therapists Blake Roberts and Jamie Haigh of the Three Percent Podcast for a thoughtful conversation about holistic masculinity, loneliness, and the risk of real vulnerability.

Blake and Jamie share the meaning behind the “three percent”, which references the small but powerful parts of our story we hide in shame, and how naming them opens the door to deeper connection and freedom. Together, they explore why so many men feel alone, the difference between conquering and connecting, and how redemptive risk invites us into a fuller, more honest life.

About Our Guests:

Jamie Haigh, LCP-MHSP, is a therapist who works with clients from all over the greater Nashville area and Columbia, Tennessee. He is passionate about creating a safe space where clients can engage with their stories. He believes that engaging with the particularities of our stories illuminates the path toward healing, and combines a strengths-based approach from solution-focused therapy with cognitive behavioral therapy and internal family systems, tailored to the client’s needs. He works with clients aged 14 and up, including both men and women. He’s passionate about working with individuals battling addiction, depression, anxiety, broken relationships, and those engaging with their emotions for the first time.

Blake Roberts, LMFT, is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in Brentwood, TN, though his credentials don’t mean he only works with couples and families. Most of his practice is made up of individuals in their mid 20s – late 40s. He believes we’re hurt in relationships and we heal in relationship. We all have unaddressed hurts or wounds, influencing how we show up in the world today, that are impacted by our internal systems and family/cultural systems. Which is why he got a masters degree in learning how to understand these systems on a deeper level and work through them toward wholeness and healing. Plus, his own personal journey of engaging the depths of his story over the years unearthed the desire to journey alongside others as they do this courageous work.

Together, they co-host The Three Percent Podcast, where they interview leaders in the fields of psychology, theology, the arts, and sports to help you become more of the man you long to be.

Related Resources:

About the Allender Center Podcast:

For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.

At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

 

Episode Transcript:

Dan: We have, Rachael, just such a pleasure to be with friends. And again, to say friends, I have had the privilege of being on these two gentlemen’s podcasts before and nothing more pleasurable than being able to invite our group, our audience into their worlds. So Blake Roberts and Jamie Hague, it is a pleasure to have the 3% with us. Welcome, gentlemen. And again, people are going to need almost immediately something of an explanation. It’s a brilliant premise, 3%, but we’ll eventually jump into how you named that podcast before we get further into some of the conversation we want to have. So would that be helpful just to begin? How did you come up with the name The 3% podcast?

Blake: Well, first, thanks for having us. This is more of a treat I think for Jamie and I. We’ve been listening to this show for a long time. And to be able to have both of you on separately on our show, and then now for all four of us to be together, it’s going to be fun.

Jamie: Yeah, it’s special.

Blake: Yeah. Should I give the disclaimer, Jamie? So just because you named it, Dan, we found out after we had launched, we had Hats Made, we had named our show, we had named the brand for this, and there’s real intentional meaning behind why it’s called 3%. And after we had this big public launch, we found out that there happens to be … What are they, Jamie?

Jamie: They’re like an alt-right militant group.

Blake: Anti-government group called Three Percenters. And we found that out because we joked one time, we were like, “Oh, maybe we could call our listeners like the three percenters.” And we Googled it and we were like, “Nope, not calling our listeners the three percenters.”

Rachael: So just to clarify.

Blake: Just to clarify, we are 3% ending on the T.

Jamie: Put a hard “T” on the end of that.

Blake: Which, I mean, it’s like neither here nor there. Some things you just have to laugh at and let go. Yeah.

Jamie: I think you’ll know you’re clearly in the wrong place if you look up the wrong thing.

Dan: No doubt. I did not know that. But there is something really something sweetly humbling about the launch because the dreams, the desire, and then to find a name that really does describe what you two accomplish and then to realize. Yeah.

Rachael: So beyond the disclaimer then.

Dan: Yeah. Beyond the disclaimer.

Rachael: What would distinguish you guys? Why would someone know they’re in the wrong room if they came?

Blake: Jamie made a joke one time that if somebody that vibes with the three percenters accidentally stumbled upon our podcast, maybe that could be really good for them. They learned about some vulnerability and holistic masculinity. Maybe that will change something. So the original meaning, 3%, which is the name of our podcast and our brand comes from this armchair theory that Jamie and I came up with very early on in our recovery, 12-step recovery journey, which is how we met, which to sum it up is just that at our very best, and this is a generous number, men in particular, but humans in general are 97% honest with, we say themselves, others, and God. And it’s the extra 3%, the things that we carry the most shame about, the most fear of, the most embarrassment around that that could be behaviors, thoughts, desires that we keep to ourselves and that 3% keeps us bound to more shame and loneliness from which a lot of our other issues stem. So Jamie and I are both therapists. And when we were dreaming about creating a brand to help men just to provide spaces and tools to show up more authentically and vulnerably, we were dreaming about names and this was just kind of right in front of us because, and Jamie, you can say more about this, but it was a thing that we came up with just in our friendship years before we thought about it being the name of the brand that was just really a permission slip to be more honest with each other. In a space, if you’re familiar with 12-Step Recovery, it’s a very vulnerable and honest space to begin with. And even in that space, we could still withhold details about our story that kept us bound to shame.

Jamie: I like to say that 97% honesty feels deeply uncomfortable if you’ve never been around it and then engaging in that level of honesty yourself is like when somebody’s like, “Well, I’m 100% honest.” I don’t know that unless you can describe the physical experience to me of trying to be 100% honest with somebody, you can know the difference of that last 3%. It feels like pulling your heart out and giving it to somebody. I think that’s why in our friendship, it was very clear to us, we go to these 12-step meetings all the time. We’re actively trying to recover from some unwanted behaviors that we have, and yet we both feel this tension of there is something I need to give away. And that’s kind of how it started in our friendship is we really did need … I think we were probably naming that desire. We were naming that desire of we need to give these last things away because these are the difference between us finding freedom and living in shame and fear of these behaviors continually. And so then it was like, “Hey, instead of saying, I’m afraid to tell you these things, I’m scared of your judgment of me, I’m scared that you’ll reject me when I tell you these things, you just pick up the phone and you say, I need to share my 3% with you.” And it invites that kind of sacred space. That’s how it started for us.

Dan: Well, I love the fact that you’ve named the reality is none of us are at the 97%. So at core, the reality of saying 3% is at least to say that by naming that, we’re invited to go further than what we would’ve presumed was humanly possible. And I think that is, as I think I said to you when I had the privilege of being on your podcast, it’s incredibly courageous. And for both of you to own the necessity and the gift to being in the 12-step process, to own your own wars, but also to say we know that part of the process is inviting others, not just to join us, but to join something of the reality that the only person who’s 100% is the God of the universe, the only person fully honest is the one who has no self-deception. So as we step in, I think one of the questions that we want you to ponder on our behalf and our audience is what you’re seeing in the year 2026 about what it means to be a man and where the cost of being a man, the reality of being a man is being played out in difficult and in some ways tragic ways.

Blake: Wonderful question. And one that it’s kind of a overall question of what we ponder on our show with our guests. One of the things that we’ll ask guests on our show is, what does it mean to you, whether it be a male or a female guest, because we’ve had both, like Rachael, we had you on, was like, how would you define holistic masculinity? And before we even get into exploring that, one of the things that Jamie and I both are very passionate about and that we say is that we’re not here to tell men in particular how to be a man or what we think the correct definition of masculinity is, because there’s a number of people out there that are taking that approach and that’s fine, that’s their cup of tea, but we like to help men explore what gets in the way of them being the man they want to be. And fortunately and unfortunately there are, I don’t know. I mean, to be a brand that is focused on this right now, in 2026 we launched last year, there are lots of good definitions in our world and at our fingertips of what it looks like to not be a healthy man. And so the bar is in some way a little bit low, but that’s not what we want to focus on. We want to focus on what does that look like? What does it look like for us? So Jamie, I want to hear what you think, but I just wanted to preface with like, that’s our at least whole mission is not this like, here’s this way that we have found and you need to come use our approach, but here are some things that have worked, very 12 stepy, take what you want, leave the rest.

Jamie: Yeah. I would say towards your question, Dan, of like, what do we see right now with men? I imagine it’s not so different than what people have seen throughout history with men, but maybe there’s some different influences right now of voices. So I think all of us by, oh man, what’s that? Is it Curt Thompson, Blake, that quote you use where it’s like, we all come into this world-

Dan: Looking for someone looking for us. I love that.

Blake: It’s either Curt or Dan or somebody in that world I’ve heard say.

Dan: Curt, definitely Curt.

Jamie: Yeah. So I think that’s what we’re seeing at a baseline. We come into this world looking for someone looking for us and when we don’t find it because we live in a world full of human beings, we go looking for what will make us feel better or allow us to avoid the sense that we don’t have someone looking for us. I like to think of it in terms of like the things that draw me to my own addictive tendencies are not the thing itself. It’s like Gabor Maté says the question of addiction is not why the addiction, but why the pain? And I think there’s a deep amount of men in pain and progressively lonelier. And the loneliness part of it, I think comes from this sense that we’re really connected because of social media, mainly that, unfortunately, I think, and there’s other reasons too, but I don’t think we are as community-oriented as maybe generations past were. And so there’s less common spaces where we develop real relationship with other men. And so then our solutions to our loneliness, our lack of sense of worth and our desire to be filled, then have to find an anchor somewhere else.

Dan: Well said.

Jamie: I think those anchors that we are seeing now, I think this is what makes me sad right now is like the anchor that I have, which would be a pornography addiction, the anchor that other men that we meet with, they seem to be culturally progressively more celebrated or the access gets easier or like the barriers to entry seem to get lower and then-

Blake: Or non-existent.

Jamie: Or non-existent. And then as you get to do more of those things in isolation, I think it preys on our desire to be self-sufficient, which is another, maybe that’s a male thing. I don’t know. With the men I meet with, it seems to come out sideways with me in this desire to be worthwhile, which comes out as self-sufficient having it all together. So I take care of my own needs so nobody else has the opportunity to not meet my needs. And I think that’s inflaming some of what we’re seeing with men right now. That’s my initial idea.

Blake: Yeah. I would echo all of that. And to the point that Jamie made about loneliness, we’re both therapists and in a pretty populated area, pretty affluent area and not just affluent in terms of like financial fluency, but just like relationship wise, majority of my clients and even people in our community, it’s not a matter of do they have connections? Do they have friends? Do they have peer support? Because not everybody has that gift, but a lot of the people that I see do, but it’s a matter of what is the depth of those relationships. And I have so many clients that have a number of friends, be it through shared interests or church or work, and will sit in my office and in Jamie’s office and talk about the loneliness that they feel and not being known and all of these things. And there’s relationships right in their immediate circle with their spouse or with their friends to be able to fill some of that void, but there’s such a great fear of making that first step. And I’ve shared this story before, and I have permission from this, not to disclose any information, but this is just an example of what we’re talking about is client mid- 40s would go on this yearly fishing trip with friends from college and’s been doing it every year for 20 odd years, 12 guys maybe. And they’d go and all these … Dan, you’d probably love it. They’d go into all these beautiful places in the country and do these amazing fly fishing trips. And this client was going through a really difficult time in his story and his marriage. And as we’re working on it for months at a time, I just was bringing up the thought of him leaning into his friends and telling them a little about where they were. And he was somebody that we’ve shared the 3% concept with, and that was a helpful permission slip. Long story short, he ended up going on that trip and probably said some version of like, “My therapist told me about this concept and this thing, but 3% or whatever.” And ended up like he came back and said that he used that and it’s just a language, it’s a shared language. So then all the guys were like, “Oh yeah, I kind of get that. ” And he came back and said that he led with vulnerability and shared about what was really going on in his story. And to his surprise, not to mine, but to his surprise, six or seven other guys opened up about something really difficult that they were going through that was pretty significant. And he said, I really think, because it had been the same way years before, if I hadn’t done that, we would’ve all gone and had a fun time and came back and nobody would’ve known each other, really known each other like a degree more. And he said it was one of the best trips they ever had and they didn’t catch any fish. They didn’t catch any fish, which that sounds tragic. I know.

Dan: But to add, the relational element was indeed the catch.

Jamie: Oh, well done.

Blake: I see what you did there, spoken like a true author.

Jamie: Oh, that’s amazing.

Dan: As I’m thinking about what you put words to, the idea of what is in the way, in so many ways it’s distractions. And one of the things I’m watching with younger men, and maybe not men my age, but I would be surprised if it’s not across the entire board, is gambling. And again, it’s one of those addictions that if we can tie it to the reality of what you just put words to, and that’s fishing. For a fly fisherman, you might cast your line 20, 30, 40 times with nothing, but the one hit that you get is enough to, shall we say, send your brain into this lovely dopamine bath. So it’s called intermittent reinforcement, and it’s the very thing that gambling holds. But when I begin to have conversations with some younger men, and most men in my world are younger than me. And one of the questions that I came to in talking about gambling is, where do you find danger that actually leads you to a sense of life? Because gambling is all about risk. It’s all about danger. It’s about the threat of winning and losing. And there seems to be so few ways for men to enter into what I would call redemptive risk, the kind of ground where your life is on the line for something bigger and more glorious than you. And when you can’t find that your life is worth risking for, then it’s going to be distractions like the prediction market as to whether this sportscaster is going to use a phrase and making a $10, $20 bet on that. I’m just curious what you two are seeing with regard to the issue of gambling, risk, danger, and whether or not men have a context to be able to live out a redemptive risk.

Jamie: I think it’s interesting that you bring that part up. It’s not language I had put to what might be going on with gambling. So that’s actually incredibly helpful for me, shifting my thinking that way and it brings up, did you see that Alex Honold climbing that tower on Netflix

Blake: The skyscraper?

Dan: Yeah. I only get slightly nauseous, so I can’t watch because I really fear getting up one or two steps on a step ladder. So I know of it, watched a portion, but I couldn’t watch it.

Blake: I watched it after it was … I’d watched it not live. I knew that he didn’t fall and die, and I still was shaking and sweating watching it. It was so anxiety provoking.

Jamie: His point that he made when discussing why he does the things he does is similar to what you just said, redemptive risk. He said, if you don’t have an appropriate view of something that’s worth being afraid of, then all the things in your life will make you afraid. And that I think kind of goes hand in hand with what you’re talking about, but the way that I see it come out with gambling with men is almost more of a preying on their need for play in a space that gamifies something that requires their continual investment. And then after you’re bought into it, you feel the need or the dopamine drive to get even… And so you lose something because you’re playing with your buddies. One of my good friends had us all get some of those apps for his bachelor party because we were going to watch some baseball games. I’m not trying to bring up baseball again, but we were going to watch baseball games. And so we were getting on some of those apps and placing these kind of joking bets because I would never bet on these actual teams. And what I noticed in myself, having never had those apps prior was, oh, it’s not the bet itself that is driving me right now, it’s the belief that I can somehow play and win this game against somebody and having no other outlet. Yeah.

Blake: That’s very childish at its core, which is… not bad.

Jamie: Right. And I think without any other outlet to use that really good God-given need, then I think we’re predisposed to be looking for accessible play that we can use in the midst of our very ever increasingly so busy lives.

Rachael: I think it’s so helpful to hear men talk about these things because I’m just thinking about your guys’ work. And so in my head I go, well, what’s more playful doesn’t feel great than, I don’t know, getting in the mess with your people, what’s more playful or risk taking than having to figure out what it looks like to live into the kingdom of God in a season when the whole narrative’s been hijacked and tied to power. But I’m thinking particularly for men in the system and social construct, how dangerous. It’s definitely more dangerous for more vulnerable bodies, but it’s like to be the ultimate betrayer of the system to say, I’m going to actually push back against this drive towards a certain kind of power or dominance when you haven’t been given the tools or resources just to not even a space to talk about that fear. So I’m more just thinking, because this guy, I’ve got in an argument with my husband, not an argument because he’s not a thrill seeker, but I have definitely been like, “If you ever died doing something as stupid as needing to climb a mountain or scale a building, I will not be standing at your funeral being like, “he died doing what he loved.” I will be like, he was selfish and thrill-seeking and needed to go to therapy. And instead of staying with us and finding adventure in the human heart and everything that we have to address with the world, he chose this thing. So I mean, I have huge … I’ve gotten in, I’m talking all out brawl arguments with my guy friends a decade ago about this. It was like when I think it was Free Solo, I think that was the name of it when that came out. I mean, I’m talking like a two hour philosophical intense and he was like, “Have you ever climbed a mountain?” And I was like, “No, and I never will.” So I have very strong, maybe irrational thoughts around this, but I also know I went to nursing school and this is just kind of like a very, I think you guys will get it. And I was very not good at working with human bodies, but I was very good at working with the human soul. So I also know we all have particularities to the places we’re meant to play and where that does feel redemptive and restorative and life giving. And I think actually I think that’s a much more human desire even than just a masculine one. Though I do think it’s a very masculine one because I just think about how many women I know whose primary place of play for so long and certain seasons of life is so oriented towards little people or keeping a home, the executive functioning of certain things. And there is an element of beauty to that and there’s also an exhaustion and a loneliness and an isolation and a desire to be competitive in a way that means something and who has the time or the energy or the resources. So I’m grateful. I’m grateful for that conversation.

Dan: Here’s a dilemma. Everything you just put words to, I’m saying internally, yes, yes, yes. And then all of a sudden I flash to the possibility that Becky’s going to listen to this, which then if she does, and I’m going to work very hard to make sure she doesn’t, then I would have to … She would be looking at me going, so you fly fish where they’re grizzlies, you rode a motorcycle up until the time you were 72, you ski and your body needs surgery. So let’s talk about what? Yeah. So again, I’m opposed to climbing a building, but there is a necessity to, in one sense, push against limits, to push against parameters that indeed open the possibility that Michael, when I take him fly fishing in Montana, will get eaten by a bear. I’ll do my best to make sure that doesn’t happen. But if it does, I just want you to know beforehand that that’s what he signed up to engage.

Blake: If the listeners could see Rachael’s face right now…

Rachael: Yeah. There’s a lot of danger. I mean, I’m a safety first person, so every day I’m having to relinquish my desire to basically have people do nothing so that they can’t be in harm’s way. I also fly fish. So I would not prohibit someone from doing something that has risks involved. I just think when you’re like, let me pick the most severe risk you could possibly have climbing the tallest building in the world. There’s like the spectrum.

Dan: To me, the issue is these sub-ancillary risks, fishing, motorcycling, have to have a core. And that core has to do with how I live out the kingdom of God and the context of my core relationships, let alone the calling that God has given. And as I think about what you two have spoken to, you’re taking a lot of risks in doing what you do and addressing what you’re addressing. So your perspective on this.

Blake: I think my answer will tie into that question and it kind of goes back to your initial question, Dan, when you brought up gambling. And also, Rachael, I’m just so glad that you’re on this conversation because it is so important and it’s why we value having female voices on our show that is for men, because if we’re just having a bunch of dudes on here learning about what it means to be a more healthy dude, we’re missing the point. And so your perspective, even in that point you brought up is so helpful. And it made me think when you were talking and you were kind of using the examples of some … I think this is what you were saying, like some mothers, especially in the early stages, the play being so focused on the family in a sense. And right now I’m in that stage where we have a two-and-a-half year old and a two-month-old, and so if I look tired, I am, but we-

Rachael: It’s real.

Blake: It is so… the play is very different. And I think what I realized, I never thought about it this way, is I played football in college. I play in a men’s basketball league. I just said I have a two-and-a-half year old and a two-month-old and I’m playing in a 30 and over basketball league tomorrow night at 9:30 PM. Why? Why am I doing that?

Rachael: Got to have that outlet.

Blake: I got to have the outlet and it is play, but I think I also realized when you’re talking about the play at home being centered on the kids and it is very connecting. It’s a connecting type of play. And I think so many men, when they’re focusing on play, it’s all about conquering. When I’m playing with my daughter or even when I’m watching my wife play with my daughter, she’s not trying to conquer something. She’s just focusing on connecting with her. And as men, we’re in these places where tomorrow night, I joked about the basketball game, I’m going to be in full conquer mode. I love having that outlet. It’s also incredibly connecting for me to just go play basketball with some friends, especially when I’m in such a job that is so heavy and I’m so absorbed by a world that is so heavy. It’s incredibly connecting. And there have been weeks where we’ve lost and I didn’t conquer. And it was like such a bummer and I didn’t even focus at all on the play of the connection. And so when you’re talking about sports gambling, it’s all the same thing. It’s all about conquering something or somebody winning over. And it’s making me realize that even what Jamie and I are doing with this whole project, I don’t even know what to call it really. This whole thing is like, it is play for us in a sense. And I feel like we’re kind of scratching both of those itches a little bit of like, if I have to use that word conquering just for the sake of the imagery, like maybe conquering some of these unhelpful or even harmful narratives about men and what men have, or who men are to be, but also really focusing on the connection of it. So that was … Yeah, I hadn’t thought about it in those two ways really until your response, Rachael, is that there’s so many … And I don’t fly fish, I want to, but I’m sure that the sentiment could be true in those places too. In those levels of play that there is danger, there could be such a real connection. But for social reasons and all of these other reasons, we’re just so focused on the conquering and the winning of the thing. Even in therapy, like guys come in here and they just want to conquer their story and retrieve and remove all of the harmful parts. And when I’m like, let’s connect with that seven-year-old and you, they’re like, what are you talking about? I want to lock him away and never see him again. And I think we’re missing something really valuable in that.

Jamie: That. I think that’s really good, Blake. I think for the men that we meet with, to your point, I think having a safe space where conquering is invited and allowed and it’s good and its container is so helpful. Blake plays in that basketball league. I play in a men’s softball league and played a lot of basketball, some with Blake as well. And I think what I have to be careful of is Chuck DeGroat has this question when he reframes the Genesis examination of rather than, “Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat from?” Chuck reframes that question of, “Where are you taking your hunger and thirst?” And I think for me, in the conquering and in the connection piece, I have to be really careful about what I’m bringing to them because I can play sports and my need is to be a seven-year-old who is just allowed to be flailing around and running my heart out. I have a real need for that and I don’t like running unless I’m chasing after something, so I need it to be in a sports environment. And I can also, there are some sports where I am exceptional at them. And if I’m not careful, what I take to those is my need to dominate somebody. I didn’t get any wins in my week and I need to win by making somebody else small in my game. And those are the weeks, to Blake’s point, those are the weeks when I leave if I lost or my whole team lost, but I lost. Those are the weeks that that hurts so bad. And it’s not because I lost a game that I’m good at. Everybody still thought I was probably pretty good at the game that week. What hurts is I am still left with my hunger and thirst because I didn’t quench it with something, even though ultimately when I do quench it with a win, all I’m thinking about is the next time I can go back and dominate somebody.

Dan: But it’s one of the elements of, in my fly fishing, I have only a few friends that I fish with regularly and two of the people that I would think about, gentlemen by the name of John and gentlemen by the name of Steve, both delight more in when I catch than when they do. And it’s vice versa in that sense that watching one of my friends fish is such a delectable taste of seeing glory and process. So the ability in many ways, I think of Revelation 5 here, we have the Lion of Judah, and there is something truly powerful and conquering in the presence of the king, yet this redeemer shows himself to be the lamb of God. And in that, there’s the interplay for me of strength, but vulnerability, and which is harder in some sense, which requires a greater risk. I think it’s inevitably being willing to go to the cross, to be a lamb, to be slaughtered. And in that sense, even though this will sound vastly too dramatic, that I spent pretty much a whole weekend with my 15-year-old grandson doing things that he would enjoy, choosing topics that he would be comfortable with, and it felt sacrificial. And in that, I love him. I joy being with him, and yet there’s something about putting aside one’s agenda, one’s demands, one’s requirements that actually felt like when Becky asked me how the weekend went, and I was like, I served him well, and there is something so satisfying, and yet, I just didn’t like losing to him at ping pong. So the interplay of these worlds do require more of us when we begin to think about, all right, we are kings. Otherwise, what does it mean to be a follower of Jesus, but we’re also lambs. And in that, how do we hold something of the beauty of that dialectic and that tension together? So as we’re pondering this, again, want to just come back to how do you two play together? How do you live this out? And certainly what you do in your brilliant podcast is one way. And obviously you play sports together, but how does relationship, what you’ve seen over these seasons grow in that direction?

Blake: That’s a great question. In this particular season, we’ve been friends, very close friends for eight, nine years. And I would say that in the earlier years, it was before kids and then before trying to start a whole separate business when we already both have private practices, the play has to be much more intentional or it just looks different like figuring out how we can even play in the work that we’re doing. How do we do that, Jamie?

Jamie: I think something as simple as … I think it is … Maybe this doesn’t seem like play to everybody, but I get the safety to completely be myself even on the phone with Blake. And so I don’t … Where it feels like play is it’s not performative. Yeah,

Blake: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Jamie: And so it’s very free and because we get to have that space, then other things can feel playful as well. I think it’s that idea of … We both have two kids. The older of my two children is a boy, his name’s Leo, and he is very lion-like in his play. He is energetic and when he feels safe, he’s his most energetic. He’s his most free. He’ll tackle me out of nowhere. And I think that is the kind of thing where in this season of life, probably the truest answer to that is play looks like we make safe spaces for each other. And then when we get the opportunity to adventure, occasionally we’ll have a retreat for Three Percent or we’ll go play pickup basketball together. That takes no time to drop into play for us because there’s the safety’s already there.

Blake: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. It’s what’s not performative and even if it’s working. I’ve used this metaphor before that when you become friends with somebody, there’s these different stages of friendship. And so if we’re thinking of a beach, maybe you meet somebody at kind of surface level through a shared experience or work together. And so that imagery would be like, you guys play volleyball on the beach together and then maybe the next layer of vulnerability in that friendship where you’re sharing a little bit more of your life and things that are going on, you’re kind of waist deep in the ocean. And so you can go out and play, but then you can also wade into the water a little bit and go a little deeper. And then you have, if you’re fortunate enough to have those few friendships where you’re deep sea fishing, those are really life changing and you can kind of do all three of those. And for most of my life, I had the let’s play volleyball on the beach friendships and there was not much depth to it. And then when you meet somebody in something like 12-step recovery, you’re just kind of thrown into the deep end of the ocean. And so you start there and then you kind of have to work your way back up to play. And so that’s something we even talk about in 3% with our community is like friendships. Not every friendship you have has to be that level of deep sea fishing together. I have some friends that I’m still honest with and that I show up with, but it’s not to that level and that’s okay, but it’s really kind of about a balance. And so I think that’s different for Jamie and I in each season of life, but the learning how to be less performative has helped a ton. And Jamie, whatever you said earlier, I think you kind of named the broader cultural issue right now without intending to, which is when you were talking about how when we don’t know how to … Maybe the way I would say it is care for the parts of us that are hurting and our loss, then we try to overcompensate that by conquering someone or something else. And to your beginning question, Dan, of like, what’s the issue we see with men? I would kind of sum it up with that. There is so many men, people, we’re talking about men walking around that never learned or had the experience of their caregivers attuning to and caring for the parts of them that are hurt by little losses, not even big significant losses that then got that wound got compensated for by learning to conquer in a sport or in an academic endeavor or a business or some art form. And so it seems like most of the work that I, at least that I do in my practice is going back to like, how do we care for those hurt parts of us, those hurt parts of our story? And then you don’t really feel the need to conquer someone or something else when you’re caring for those parts of you and it’s more focused on the connection. So at least that’s, I think, what we’re trying to do with men.

Dan: Well, when you live with a connection that requires the level of vulnerability that you’re both speaking about, it is a level of risk that opens the door to there’s nothing in any portion of life more dangerous and more risky than love. And what you’ve invited us to is this is what we’re about. This is what the work of God is. How do we live out the love of God on our behalf and on behalf of others? So gentlemen, thank you. Thank you for your risky willingness and a friendship, but also in your podcast to invite us all into something of the wonder of what it means to love. Yeah. Thank you.

Jamie: Thank you. Again, thanks for having us. Blake and I have said many times to each other, but this podcast was really formative for both of us in how we think about the world and as we kind of broke down everything about who we were to become who we are, it has been incredibly helpful. So thank you both.

Blake: I don’t think 3% would exist without the work of the Allender Center and the people who have come through the Allender Center because that was probably one of the first, at least for me, one of the first places where I started to even hear what would become 3% honesty. And so yeah, this is a pretty fun full circle for us to be able to chat with you guys.