Checking In, Part 2

by on November 8, 2024

In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dan and Rachael open up about navigating uncertain times with faith and intentionality. 

They recorded this conversation before the results of the U.S. Presidential election were announced so that, no matter the outcome, they could focus on what it means to act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly in today’s world. 

As they examine both the cultural landscape and the state of their own hearts, we invite you to listen and join them in reflecting on what it looks like to live with purpose and compassion — even when the future feels unknown.

Listener Resources:

Episode Transcript:

Dan: Well welcome folks to a new world and the election has occurred. Here’s our dilemma. We chose, and you can question our sanity, and I’m sure you’ve actually done so many times, but we chose to do this podcast before we know who actually, so-called won the election. So given that we know this is coming after the election has maybe been decided, I think the likelihood is that it’s possible that there won’t actually be a full fledged clarity as to who won, but assume that our reflection implies that at some point there will be a clearer decision as to who won the election. So Rachael, as we begin with that, a little warning, tell me how you approach coming into this conversation.

Rachael: Honestly, I just feel, I just want to name, I feel this often, but I feel this particularly in approaching this conversation that words feel risky and dangerous and to speak or to say something or to try to articulate something ways that could be misheard or misinterpreted or provocative or disruptive, whatever. So I come to this conversation feeling a bit timid, honestly, and probably not much different than the conversation we had earlier last week. So…

Dan: I can agree in that my body still feels the upheaval, but there is something I know to be true in my spirit that feels maybe even though I can say it’s still night, but I can see some of the first lights of day coming. At that level of being able to go, I have more a sense of what is ahead and in that I’m relieved it’s over. Again. I don’t know who won and there will be, for me, grief and fear if one did; less grief, but no loss of grief and no loss of fear if the other wins. So what, at least at this juncture, there is a sense of not so much let’s move on because I don’t think we can “move on”. We have got to move through. And yet in talking about what we’re going to be putting words to, for me, I’m coming back to the most simple, simple reality. I found myself going back to some of Paul’s words, and that is I boast in nothing but Christ crucified, and there is something in the reality of that story that is even more for me important in shaping the story of what comes ahead.

Rachael: I’m smiling because not at that passage actually find that very empowering, disruptive, provocative praying, but what your words are making me think about the sunlight was like, oh yeah, I guess I do feel that sense of I’m always way more scared in the unknown and the impending doom than I am once the doom is actually arrived. It’s like when we were in Hawaii once and I was so scared of our team was in Hawaii after many years of startup and struggle and strife and sacrifice, and I swam in the waters, but I swam in the ocean, but I’m so terrified of sharks that I could never rest. I could never really play. It took me about two hours to really get to a place of like, okay, now I’m just going to abandon. And then our very last night we were there, there was literally a tiger shark in the water. Some woman was standing on shore going tiger shark! And I actually was like, I knew it. I knew there was a tiger shark out here somewhere, and now it’s like someone’s validating it and everyone else was rushing to get out of the water. And I was like, if it’s going to eat us, it’s going to eat us. It could get here so fast. I’m just going to stay here and float, take my chances. And everyone was so confused. Like really confused as to what’s going on. And it’s like I actually am better at getting to work when there’s at least some sense of what is it we’re working with.

Dan: It’s not that we want bad news, but the uncertainty intensifies so much more of our stress biochemicals and therefore in some sense creates reactment structures to other periods of time in which we have been living in great uncertainty with regard to either our health or relationships or finances. There’s a sense of which it isn’t just the election, it’s huge in and of itself, but it becomes this vacuum that sucks in all the other uncertainties, all the other losses, all the other grief, all the other angers that we have known and important to in some sense, be able to tend to, what am I really going through here? And not saying the election’s small, but saying there’s almost always more for us in that moment than what’s there and beginning to now say, well, how did you deal with the uncertainty of the diagnosis? It turned out great for you or it turned out terribly for you. There was something in the data of when it came good or bad, that was a relief because it now sets for you a different direction than the mere wondering and worrying. I’m not saying there isn’t wonder and worry, but it does shift in part in the core of that transition. So as you begin to think about, maybe I’m using a very promising and maybe for some very unrealistic sense that, oh, there’s light and the light’s not because of who won. The light is where we are as a culture and what it means for us to engage, not merely the results of the election, but the results of what brought us to this kind of election. And certainly the acrimony, division, cruelty, not misinformation, just outright lying. Where are you now as, and again, I’m asking are you sensing any little light or…?

Rachael: Well, I mean I think I put words to this in part one of this kind of conversation of checking in that I’ve had very little, I have hopes for the outcome that I long for and hope for, but that’s not necessarily where I would find light or where my hope lies within, if that makes sense. So yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if I could say that I think I see work, I see probably more clarity as to what will be the threat level, restrictions, constraints, and or pathways to do that work. And I don’t think that work ever ceases for us, especially as people who claim to be like followers of Jesus, no matter where we find ourselves, what location, what nationality, what level of access to safety and privilege. So yeah, in some ways I can say that, but I, yeah, I could probably feel, still feel some level of despair. I still feel some level of overwhelm as to what all actually needs to be repaired and imagined and confronted and contended with and…

Dan: Yeah, if by saying maybe the hint of a light rising, I don’t mean by any stretch to say that anxiety’s been resolved, grief has been finished and that I’m not angry. All I’m saying is with the conclusion, assuming at some point it takes me back to what I hope was true before, but even more so now, and that is I do not want the gospel to be conflated or even worse consumed, eaten by a political party, a particular person, and then associated with a judgment and violation of those whom you might even call your enemy. So I’m not denying that we have enemies, and those enemies might be part of the political process, but how we engage our enemy has to be re-engaged with regard to any place of vitriol, any structures of contempt, any violations of the humanity of others in order to achieve a political end has to be called not just, oh, that’s that person or that structure necessary because it’s just part of an election. We have come somehow, I believe, as the believing community to endure forms of violence, debauchery, cruelty, which are evil, and we have somehow anesthetized ourselves to the implications that anything that is being used in that means, even if you perceive it as to moving toward a legitimate end, the means by which has violated the end and the end will actually reveal the means themselves. So somehow we need to get to a good end, but we know we have to be in the political process and join it in its own, in one sense, secular form in order to then accomplish so-called Christian values. That is a madness that I don’t know how to extract. I don’t know how to pull that weed out. It’s a poison in our body politic. And there’s something about then not joining with acrimony by spreading more, but by being able to call us back, call me back to something that is grounded, and not to remove anxiety, but to be grounded and something that allows me to allow the heart to bear grief in a way in which I have more room to be able to hold the suffering of others in a way that brings honor not only to them, but to the living presence of the gospel in this world. So I need to tend to grief, I need to tend to anger, I need to tend to anxiety, but it can’t be as a result of what occurred in either case as to whom was elected, but far more what’s my intent, as simple as that may sound, what’s my intent to live the next four years, irrespective of which political party takes the so-called power to direct what will happen at some level with regard to America? Does that make more sense?

Rachael: Yeah, no, that feels very clear. 

Dan: So when you think about intent, what’s your intent? What can we say we’ll be doing more of as a result of these acrimonious years? And what can people in some sense anticipate with regard to the Allender Center and with regard to the Allender Center Podcast?

Rachael: I mean, I think we will always be speaking to the realities of our world, and we are a center that exists at the intersection of the impact of trauma and abuse on our personhood, on our bodies, on our capacity to participate in the kingdom of God. So we’re going to continue confronting abuse and we’re going to continue seeking to develop tools and resources and partnerships that can provide mercy and help to those who need it. And we know that our work is primarily in the realm of that mercy work, but it’s always with an eye towards justice because we don’t want to just be ambulance workers who are helping the wounded, but not actually doing something to attempt to figure out why the wounds are coming in the first place. And that’s such a tricky space to be at such a time as this when there is great urgency for wound care, but also great urgency in confronting the powers and principalities that are causing the wounds. And again, those don’t live outside of us. It’s not like we’re not a part of the systems and infrastructures and realities. I can say really, particularly for myself, I think I can say that at this point that we have an online course coming out soon that’s going to be engaging spiritual abuse and healing. And I know for myself at such a time as this that the more I study and understand the weapons and tools and nature of spiritual abuse and how it can really play out in any community or context, even, not even doesn’t have to be Christian, that I feel even more compelled to really equip people with insight and empower them to understand and discern when spiritually abusive tools are being weaponized. When our divine attachment to God that is like a birthright of being made of the image of God is actually being weaponized against us to harm others and bring tremendous harm to ourselves. So I feel very resolute for myself in the work that I’m meant to be a part of. And I think even for me as the more pastoral parts of myself, I was telling you, it can be such a temptation to just feel the futility to give into the despair, to say it’s not worth speaking or preaching or being a part of any kind of faith community because what the heck is happening to the church? But I feel now more than ever how vital and important it is to be rooted in place and time with the people, like a real people to do life together in a way that takes the real problems of our day, the real threats of our day, and attempt to live them out in relationship with a sense of belonging to the spirit of God, to Jesus and to not go it alone. So those are some of the things that I’m feeling like a deep commitment to, I could say personally for myself. And I think there are ways that feels connected to the work of the Allender Center and even our work here on the podcast. What about you?

Dan: Well, I think putting words to what I attempted to say before a diabolos. Scattering. Dividing. There is again the natural response of in any form of trauma, as people have heard us say many times over any trauma, any kind of trauma creates a kind of left frontal lobe fragmentation, which is another word for the words scattering, where you can’t think, can’t make decisions as easily and well as you once might have. So I’m aware of my own fragmentation more so than it could be my age and could be my whole bunch of things, but it’s there and I can feel the numbness that often comes in the face of trauma where just as I said, there are times I can’t read an article and I don’t think that is dissociative. It’s more like I know right now important as it is, I cannot bear it in a way that will move me and my heart toward the things that need to be addressed. But I think what often occurs as we put words to trauma before is that with fragmentation and numbing, it is so “natural”, heartbreaking, and not indeed gospel, but we isolate. And part of isolation for me is why bother? I love my books. As a pretty thorough going introvert, I can live a lot of my life just alone in my office following great thoughts of people who I respect and just be a reader. But there is a part of me that knows there is something in this era, I’m not quite sure I can use the word excited, but I would say if we had an English word that could hold the word excited and defiant something in me that’s going, you will not take the gospel that has saved my life. You will not, and you will not bind it to one view of life. No. If anything, I feel like I’ve come back again and again to just… this I know Jesus loves me and in that I need to love my enemies better than I apparently do. And that has become part of my defiance of the people who I differ with on a lot of scores and people I’m divided from. What does it mean to begin to dream more of what it means to love my enemy or to love the person who thinks they’re my enemy when I don’t consider them to be my enemy? And I think that is a realm of being able to go… I have got to be able to make a deep distinguishment between what one artist has called the “American Gospel,” and the gospel. And I’ll say that a friend who’s been on this podcast before Pete Wehner sent me, I’m sure a number of other people, a song by John and I don’t know how to, John Guerra, G-U-E-R-R-A, called the “American Gospel.” And we’re going to play it for you, let you have a chance just to hear this remarkable music and then we’ll come back and talk about it.

American Gospel Lyrics:

 

Blessed are the powerful
Blessed are the rich
Blessed are the merciless
And the hypocrites
They will inherit the empires passing
It’s the American Gospel

Blessed are the superstars
Blessed are the famous
Blessed are the ones
Who make their faces ageless
They will inherit the magazine covers
Of the American Gospel

Come to me, those who have something to give
Come to me, those who are likely to win
Come to me, those who are ruthless and proud of it, oh

Come pledge
Come swear
Come vote for the American Gospel
Don’t wait
Come trade
Your soul for the American Gospel

Blessed are the speech police
Fundamentalists
Blessed are the rioters
Raising clenching fists
They will be filled with empathy for all
Except their enemies

Come to me if you would take up the sword
A citizen honest, a patriot pure
Come to me, all who are willing to kill in the war

For country
For culture
And God and the American Gospel
For yours
Is more
And more of the American Gospel

Blessed are the powerless
Blessed are the poor
Blessed are the merciful
Blessed are the pure
For they will inherit the kingdom of Heaven
And that’s the heart of the Gospel

“American Gospel” (Jon Guerra, 2024), used with permission. You can hear more from Jon at jonguerramusic.com.

Dan: Stunning, stunning lyrics. It helped me when it was sent to be able to go, this is what I am at war with, but I don’t want to fight the war by viewing those who I differ with as my enemy. I didn’t feel angry. I didn’t feel grief, I didn’t feel anxious. I just, all I knew to do was to say, you’ve taken something so precious. And yet what is precious? What is true? Spoken in those simple words. Blessed are the powerless. Blessed are the poor, blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the pure, for they will inherit the kingdom of heaven. And that’s the heart of the gospel. That is where my heart went. Yes, I feel grief going through this. Yes, I feel anger going through this. And still the anxiety doesn’t dissipate entirely, but there is something that again goes Christ crucified. Christ raised from the dead. And Jesus standing among his disciples saying, touch my body. Let me feed you. And then rising some 40 days later. I… in the midst of the disarray of my own personal and corporate cultural story, I have to go back to the power, simplicity, complexity, and the compelling glory of that story. Otherwise, I feel like I have lost my center. But in this, it’s creating for me the contrast. And that is, yeah, how easy it is for anyone to lose the gospel for another gospel. What Paul talks about in Galatians, even though it was about the issue of circumcision, he’s saying, how could you, in the first chapter of Galatians one, he says, how could you have been bewitched? If you know Paul’s writing almost every church, including Corinthians that had levels of division where there was incest, where there was people were taking the Lord’s table and getting drunk and creating a distinction between the wealthy and the poor. I mean, the Corinthian church was a freaking mess. And he still had such gracious beginning words in the first chapter. But to the Galatians, he begins with essentially, how could you have lost the gospel? And I think we just have to be able to say every heart, every person, every marriage, every friendship, every culture has a high probability of losing the gospel, of somehow having the gospel sort of shaded by, taken over by. And therefore, I don’t think we need to look at this as like we’re the only people who have ever had to have songs written like this in order to be disturbing enough to be able to go, good God, what’s happened that indeed superstars, famous, ageless, the powerful, the rich and the merciless are the ones who claim something of the delight and power of the community of God, versus we being the ones who not only offer alternative, but in a prophetic way, expose and yet invite, exposure without invitation. In other words, justice without mercy inevitably leads to a repetition of the same harm only done by different people. So I think all that is what this piece of music did for me and for you?

Rachael: Yeah, I feel the ache. Certainly as someone who’s like a pastor by orientation. It’s like when the flock is being so persuaded into death and by the strong man by seduction, there’s such a rage in me to contend with that. And I also, in the same breath, can see ways in which my own spiritual formation has been informed and impacted by the American gospel. And so I feel a deeper sense of the log in my own eye and a remembering the grace that come in my life to open the door to a different way, and that sense of being saved again and again and again by, the Christ who keeps revealing and keeps saying, Hey, we’re going this way, and you’re welcome. There is a place for you here. So I do feel deeply grateful for both the prophetic and the prophetic nature of this song and the way it’s inviting me to both be sober and clear about what it is we’re up against, but not in a way that excludes myself from a need for the same sobriety and clarity.

Dan: Yeah, I think that was, if anything, I found myself initially, maybe a third of the way through the song, I found myself going, oh, he’s talking to you, Dan, certainly to more than me, but no less. And that sense of what a gracious gift Jon offers us, brilliant music, but how powerful it is to draw us back to the log in our eye, at least in my case, the log in my eye. But I don’t want the log to keep my heart from being able to address you, individual, and us, culture. And that is we’ve got some sawdust that’s keeping us from being able to see clearly. We are part of the lies, we are part of the incivility, and we’re part of the mercilessness. And if that’s the case, then there is a violation of the radical upside down kingdom of God. And so I think in some ways, what I find myself saying, and I don’t feel like we’ve not done this, but I think we need to be clearer in a lot of our work. What is the kingdom of God? How does the kingdom of God, shall we say, expose, invite and bring peace to every other kingdom? And when we are in one sense standing against, we have to be standing for and in standing for if we don’t have, again, back to Micah 6, act justly, love mercy. But this next phrase, walk humbly. So I think that’s what I found myself saying with regard to Jon’s work. That is, it is a call to justice. It’s actually a deep call to mercy, but even more so to the humility we will all need in order to enter into these next number of years in a way in which the kingdom of God becomes clearer, sharper, and even more compelling than it has been, so that the kingdoms of this world that offer shiny objects that are a form of vanity fair, no longer hold our eyes and heart in a way that the simple, powerful parabolic kingdom that Jesus offers, which is far more compelling because as Peter said, to whom else shall we go? Who else has the words of life? That’s what I hope our next four years will be like.