Spiritual Formation & White Racial Identity Development with TJ Poon

by on August 23, 2024

Spiritual director and story coach, TJ Poon, sits down with Rachael Clinton Chen to explore the intersection of spiritual formation and White racial identity development. 

We’ll begin by saying that we are approaching this conversation with a deep sense of responsibility and humility, honoring the voices of people of color who have led the way and are aware that two White people are not experts on racism. This is a complex topic and there will be missteps. Even when the conversations are difficult, we at the Allender Center know that the realities of racism and White supremacy cannot be ignored, and we are committed to holding a space to engage them.

In today’s episode, TJ and Rachael consider how White-bodied people understand their stories, how their stories and spiritual formation have been influenced by systems of Whiteness, and the challenge of feeling anchored and connected to family histories. They also acknowledge that on this journey of personal and collective healing, White people will inevitably need to confront anxiety, shame, and humiliation in their pursuit of restoration, with a commitment to what TJ calls “joyful anti-racist action.”

We hope you’ll join us in this conversation with curiosity, compassion, and courage, understanding that ongoing dialogue, learning, and formation are vital to our work with trauma on behalf of the kingdom of God.

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About Our Guest:

TJ Poon is a spiritual director and story coach, and Facilitator with the Allender Center. TJ’s introduction to storywork happened almost 20 yrs ago when she was handed The Wounded Heart in a brown paper bag. Diving into her family of origin and story of sexual abuse started a journey of healing that has continued throughout the years.

As an adult, TJ’s spiritual formation has been shaped by her work in an Asian American campus ministry. In that context, she learned about mutuality, space-sharing and servant leadership in ways that have deeply altered her way of being in the world. She has been led by BIPOC leaders for her entire vocational career, which she considers instrumental in forming and shepherding her heart.

TJ has spent many years working through “anxious spirituality” and moving to a secure relationship with God. Recently on a silent retreat, she noticed the lightness in her spirit and said to herself, “this is what it is to be loved and free.” Now, loved and free have become words that describe both what she hopes to experience and what her work invites others into for themselves.

She lives in Austin, TX with her husband and two children.

Episode Transcript:

Rachael: Good people with good bodies. As we’ve engaged the reality of racial trauma here at the Allender Center and specifically on the Allender Center Podcast, we’ve heard from many of you who identify as white that it’s been really powerful to hear from leaders of color from our team and those who are guests on our podcast, and that it’s deeply shaped your understanding, not only of racial trauma in our context, but in some ways our place as white people in that story, we’ve also heard from some of you that it would be helpful in addition to hear from other white people who are on this journey of white racial identity development and who are deeply committed to becoming anti-racists. So today I’m really grateful to be joined by my friend and colleague, TJ Poon, a spiritual director, a current member of the Allender Center facilitation team, and a longtime campus ministry leader among many other things. She is a wise learner, a humble leader in cross-cultural settings, a gifted story guide who is committed to the ever present lifelong work of anti-racism. She graduates this spring with her Master’s of Spiritual Formation and one of her areas of focus has been the intersection of spiritual formation and white racial identity development. And I can say personally, I’ve had the privilege of learning from TJ in ways that have been deeply encouraged and strengthened and empowered my capacity to stay in this gospel labor. So I wanted to invite her to be with us today and I’m just so grateful. So thank you, TJ. Welcome.

TJ: Thank you, Rachael. Yes. I feel so honored and so humbled to be here with you and just really grateful to actually have this conversation with a friend and someone I trust, someone I know is committed to being a lifelong learner, so I’m grateful.

Rachael: Yeah, and you and I were talking as we were preparing for this, and before we go any further, wanted to take a moment to just name some of the realities that we’ve talked about that feel just really risky about this conversation, especially in a format such as this. So first of all, this conversation feels foolish in some way because we both long to bring such honor to our colleagues and friends and the great cloud of witnesses who have gone before us speaking primarily about the people of color in our midst and wanting to really bring honor to them as we have this conversation and knowing that we’ll probably mess up and we’ll misstep. And it’s really hard to bring honor really well to anything that you’re trying to do in 40 or 45 minutes that is so complex and also just so worthy of a lot of nuance and good care. And it also feels cowardly to not have this conversation when time is of the essence and the realities of racism and white body supremacy, especially in our country, are a matter of life and death for many, real life and death. We’ve seen that even more recently and certainly around the globe and two white women having this conversation could set up the notion that we are somehow experts on this topic, which we will never be able to be. It would be like a man in some ways trying to teach women about patriarchy would just feel in some ways like asinine because we would need to be a part of that conversation. So we’re just owning upfront that we will never be able to be experts on this and that instead we’re really people in process who are constantly looking toward the leadership and discipleship of people of color who are also known as the global majority. And it’s an important conversation for white folks to have, but it’s certainly not the only conversation. And so at times our fear is that you may hear us as white folks letting you off the hook from the really hard transformative work of becoming anti-racist and we’re not. And we also know from our own stories and our own journeys that shame and fear are just not effective tools of sustainable change, even though they can feel soothing at times and certainly get weaponized along white racial identity development in general. So toward that end, we’re going to do our best to move with as much wisdom, humility, and vulnerability as possible. Any other thoughts, TJ, before we kind of jump in?

TJ: Well, I just want to echo all of those things and say that I’m glad that we’re naming those things. Those fears have been my fears. And I just want to say too, particularly about being people in process that are not experts, that’s important to my individual story because doing a context like this, a format like this is very hard for my perfectionist parts. So I’m going to say that. And also it’s an important collective acknowledgement, exactly what you said, that we are two people in a process who are actually very committed to learning from other people, people of color, people of the global majority. That is where our primary discipleship and learning happens. And also we do have this place where we can and speak to a moment for a moment to people who are in this journey.

Rachael: Can you briefly share with us how did you get started on a journey of anti-racism and what was some of that beginning work of white racial identity development for you?

TJ: Yes, here I’m really going to hit the highlights since it’s been such a long and it’s a long journey for everyone. And I’ll just say that as a young adult, I was waking up to myself as a racialized being, which I think is where almost all white bodied people start the realities of race and racialization are largely invisible to those of us in white bodies until at some point they’re not. And usually we have a lot of help getting to that point. There is a process for every person, how that recognition comes and then what they do with that knowledge. So that was happening for me as a young adult. And then I’ll say that I married a Cantonese-American man who grew up in Hong Kong and he and I together joined the staff of an Asian-American ministry. In those early days of being involved in that ministry, several things happened. One is that I began to more clearly see the systemic realities of race in our country. The injustices, again had a lot of help from the community around me in seeing that I was not seeing it myself. And I had a specific moment where I wasn’t just seeing the reality, but I became aware of an impulse in myself that would rather deny that that existed, pretend like it didn’t exist, exist. And when I saw that impulse in myself, that really changed everything for me. The Asian-American ministry that was and is part of a larger, predominantly white organization, and anyone who has been in that context knows the conversations and shall we say negotiations that happen in that dynamic. And I was beginning to be involved in that and I started to be committed to being an ally, to being an accomplice, to being a co-conspirator. All those different concepts became important to me. And then I’ll say another thread that was happening is in those years and is still happening was that being immersed in a spiritual context that was different than the one that I grew up in allowed me to see differences in our formation. At that time, I didn’t have that word formation. I would’ve said something like discipleship, which I think is also accurate, but I was seeing real differences between myself and the community I was part of and how we shared space, for example, or in my case, didn’t share space, how we viewed leadership and discipleship and how we wielded power. And seeing those differences was really important to me. I recognized how that was connected to my formation in whiteness, even though I didn’t know that word. Serving with Epic, which was the Asian-American ministry is the Asian-American ministry, has really been the honor of a lifetime. I really can’t express all the honor or gratitude I have for the ways in which truly I grew up there and was spiritually formed there. Not that it’s not without its challenges, but it’s just been such a significant place that has shaped who I’m and how I move in the world.

Rachael: I’m just really grateful for your vulnerability and your honesty. And one of the things I appreciate is that you have been in this work, not just in your own personal journey as a white person, but working it out in a cross-cultural context. And I know you’ve been doing a lot of research at that intersection of spiritual formation and white racial identity development. And I guess I’m curious, you kind of put some words to it, but could you tell us a little bit more about what compelled you to that unique intersection in your research?

TJ: Yeah, absolutely. Well first of all to say, you know it’s so important. No white bodied person should be doing this work just kind of out there on their own. Our relationships with others are so important and they force us to confront different realities at different times. I was invited to be part of a racial trauma cohort in last few years as the only white bodied person, and to put it mildly, that stirred up stuff for everyone. And what it stirred up for me included questions like, where do I belong and who do I belong to and what anchors my identity? So those were my ability to put language to those longings was a growing thing. Let me just say that, but I could tell that these kind of questions were being stirred in me. And at the same time, I was in the middle of my degree with the opportunity to do some self-directed study and I thought, well, I’ll look at spiritual formation and white identity development. Two things I’m interested in. And really I was thinking that I would find some spiritual practices to support different stages of white racial identity development. That is…

Rachael: I remember you and I having a conversation where we were like, we need some spiritual practices. You were like, I’m going to be studying this. I’ll keep you posted.

TJ: Yes. And that was the outcome I anticipated and I think that’s great work to do. I might do that work later because I think there’s some really important things there. But when I started reading the literature and what is true about white bodied folks who move through these various stages of white racial identity development, I saw that in the journals, in the research people, even the people who were in this final stage of development, and please hear me say that that does not mean that they’re any way done with their journey, but just achieved this status of racial identity development. Even those folks were saying things like their anti-racist action gave them a sense of redemption for being white. And that did not sit well with me. And yet I recognized something of myself in that question about what is it that really anchors my identity? And I felt that if we are constantly trying to answer that question out of a sense of anxiety, because that’s what that sounds like to me, saying that my action gives me a sense of redemption for being white, that sounds like anxiety to me. And I don’t see how that helps us form truly authentic mutual relationships with others or stay committed to transformation for a lifetime.

Rachael: I want to clarify. Ultimately we know action has to come out of this transformative work or it’s like, what’s the point? We’re not actually doing anything to bring the kingdom of God in a more substantial way, in a collaborative way. However, what you’re reading is that people are saying the only thing that gives them a sense of redemption in this identity is doing enough.

TJ: Yeah, absolutely.

Rachael: That there’s nothing else…

TJ: That there’s not an anchor point. And so that really changed the nature of my question and I started to ask, what is the journey of spiritual formation that helps us answer this question of belonging and identity? So that, so many things, so that we are compelled into a lifetime of anti-racist work, out of love and desire for shalom, mutual flourishing and not out of our own insecurity. And I’ll say so that we don’t ask the people of color around us to answer that question for us.

Rachael: Absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, it’s like I think here I want to pause because I know for a lot of people listening, you might say, well, what anchors us is our identity as Christians or as the people of God. And I think both you and I would both say of course, where we fight our most true identity as human beings is that we are children of God and also we are in a cultural located ness and we’re called to be people who take the gospel seriously and are participating in repair and accountability and reconciliation and giving up our lives to find our lives and giving up our power to experience a different kind of power and vulnerability. And so part of what I’m thinking about when you say, this is the amount of times I am looking for a place to be encouraged in this work, to stay in it. And you’re absolutely right, our friends and non friends who experience the oppression that white supremacy brings need safe spaces to not be in the presence of other white people. Does that mean that’s the only space they need? No. I mean as Christians, we know the kingdom of God is meant to be a really diverse, beautiful reflection. And where do I go when so much of my work in the trenches and on the ground is actually trying to bring about effective change in my communities, my families that might not always be on board with this work? So to be in an identity specific place with regard to race, if we’re going to say, oh, you’re going to go be with people that share a similar identity, doesn’t always lead to a robust community of belonging where you get to be encouraged. It is the trenches and that’s a place we need to be where your kind of question hit me because you would say perfectionism drives you. Where it hit me was how much I can be driven by being a good helper and when I’m working so hard to be a good anti-racist and I don’t get gratitude and appreciation like anyone owes, anyone owes me that and how resentful I can get and how wounded I can get and just that I impulse in me to feel so much shame and then want to backtrack and opt out in order to alleviate and soothe as opposed to knowing this is challenging work being like there’s a reason Jesus said it’ll be harder for the rich man to enter the kingdom of God than the camel to move through the eye of the needle. It is challenging work and it’s such good work. And yeah, I don’t think my anxiety, my performance, my shame, my desire to be helpful or get it right, it’s not sustainable stay in this work. And so I’m grateful for you for asking questions of the research that help us and especially as Christians, that doesn’t feel like a good enough answer either. So where has this question taken you? What have you, I know you, so I know it’s led to more curiosity than any kind of certainty, but where has it taken you and what have you learned that might help us kind of figure out how to find a sense of belonging and be anchored in a different way?

TJ: Right. Well you said a lot of important things, so I’m going to circle back to some of them. I think that question about don’t we just belong to God? Well, yes, absolutely we do. And actually in a lot of ways that’s the answer to the question. However, we’re familiar with the term spiritual bypassing. It is one thing to arrive at that answer out after a lot of hard work. And it’s different to use that answer to avoid the hard work. So that’s what I’m going to say about that belonging, of course, we belong to God. And also that needs to be where you arrive at the end, not how you get out of the question. So where my curiosity led me and where these experiences that I’ve had have led me was really into my own journey of belonging, which was stirred up in the context of stress. I would say stress is actually really important to us for how we grow a right amount of stress is critical. So when we find ourselves in places of racialized stress, those are important invitations to us. So as I’m in this journey of figuring out my belonging, I start thinking about what happened spiritually when my ancestors, our ancestors traded their cultural distinctives for whiteness because that’s what happened. That’s how we became white. At some point in our journey, our ancestors traded a lot of their cultural distinctives and their values for this moniker of whiteness and the safety that offered. And in one of the books that I read, Been in the Struggle, I’m trying to enunciate it so people can hear it, Been in the Struggle, the co-author Tobin Miller Shearer writes that these choices of our ancestors led to a vacuum with spiritual consequences. So instead of getting our belonging from a community’s spiritual traditions and practices, we actually became dependent on whiteness for what is really a false sense of belonging. When you were saying being in affinity spaces doesn’t necessarily lead to robust encouragement and accountability. I’m going to say it absolutely doesn’t because sometimes it leads us into this false sense of belonging where power and privilege become anchor points of identity rather than the connection of a people and a community. And I would say even a land.

Rachael: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think when I first started my journey, I really was very proud to be Italian-American among other European ancestry, but a large cultural expression of Italian-American. And I kind of held onto that often as a way to escape having to contend that I was also white. And as I’ve gone deeper in my journey, I actually entered a lot of grief around, I’m probably going to cry just because the matriarch of my family and my grandmother just recently passed away. So I’m just thinking a lot about this. But I hadn’t done the work to understand the stories of what my family had actually given up, what kind of erasure had they given themselves over to as a way to stay safe and get to opt into this system. And when we say system, we do mean legally and politically and economically that gave them certain privileges that excluded others. And there was a sense of like, well, I don’t want to be excluded, so I’m going to grasp, going to grasp this and really grasp onto this thing. So loss of language, loss of cultural traditions, loss of their own, if you will, indigenous spiritualities coming out of southern Italy, Catholicism had a stronghold. So there’s also that reality, but that was a different way of engaging my cultural and ethnic heritage than just kind of the pride in it without having to really look more deeply at, I don’t want to say shallow, but I think I will say in some ways how shallow that cultural heritage got to be because of how much has actually been lost and how infused it is with so many other things. And yeah, I want to say we’ve used the words like white bodied, and that’s language I learned from Resmaa Menakem and his book, My Grandmother’s Hands. And he also talks about white people need to become people of culture and they’re not people of culture. In some ways. He’s saying the main culture you have is this thing and you need to develop. And I think that’s a little bit what we’re talking about in some ways, how we develop in many ways a culture of belonging as white people that has deeper anchors, deeper roots and anchors and roots that will lead to transformative action and costly action. So I digress. I’ll turn it back to you.

TJ: First, I just want to honor that journey and honor just your memory of your grandmother. And I know that she was important to you and your honesty about how you’ve approached that in different stages of your life because that is really important work. Becoming more connected to our family story is important work. And I think about Cherokee author Randy Woodley who says, we’re all indigenous to somewhere, which is true. We all have a land and a people that we come from, and many of us are very removed from that. And so discovering that is important and it does not take the place of really wrestling with the system that we’ve inherited, the system that we participate in, that we benefit from the racialized work of ourselves as white bodied people. So yes, it has been so important to me to connect to the degree that’s possible for me of my story, my family’s history, and also that doesn’t opt me out of the fact that I occupy a white woman’s body in 2024 in the United States of America and what that means for me and the communities that I’m part of, and I’m really responsible for that knowledge. I’m responsible for how I steward the body that I live in. And I recognize that that’s not all of who I’m, that I have a family story, I have a culture. Even if I am removed from those, that doesn’t mean they don’t exist, just means that I’m not as connected to them as I might want to be. And I can grieve just as you were saying, all the reasons why that happened. I think it’s important to grieve those reasons and that actually fuels to some degree my ability to stay in this journey and steward and own the reality of occupying a white body. I also want to say we were talking about this false sense of belonging that people get from whiteness, and as they begin to move away from that, deconstruct this or become aware of this kind of false belonging that is built on supremacy, I think that they struggle to know exactly what to build identity on. And it’s really important to say that what I’ve observed, not only in myself but in lots of people around me, is that subconsciously I think what folks actually begin to attach to, and you’ll hear me kind of say attach or belong almost interchangeably. I think what they start to attach to is actually being good white people. And I wish you could see my air quotes and subconsciously they are trying to attach to being good white people. And this is what you were alluding to earlier. We start to see this when our anti-racist journeys don’t survive our first round of humiliation.

Rachael: Say that again.

TJ: We know that we are not grounded if our anti-racist journeys don’t survive our first round of humiliation because we do not know everything. We are not going to know everything as white people. We don’t get to be the experts. We’re not going to be the experts, and so we’re just going to have moments of shame and humiliation. That’s not ideal, but that’s life, right? And how do we deal with that? Where do we go with that? And if we take our ball and we go home, that is really indicative of where we were finding identity and life. And I’m not saying this, we all know that we don’t just stop. We don’t just say, oh, I see that in myself and now I’m going to stop that. It’s a reorientation, it’s formation, it’s repentance, it’s continual repentance to see and to turn around and go another direction. One of my life value statements is I will choose to delight in finding yet another thing that I have been wrong about. And let me just say that is aspirational, because the shame that I feel in those moments does not feel like delight. And the shame is powerful. The invitations of shame are so powerful and we really can get stuck there.

Rachael: Well, and we are in apocalyptic times. It’s not the first time in the world history of the world, and it won’t be the last. And I just mean apocalyptic. I’ve said this before in the podcast in that it’s an unveiling of things that have been true and many people have known in their bodies, this is the truth, but they’re being exposed in a way that if you want to say they’re not true, you actually have to actively look away or actively be in denial or actively come up with a different story. Yeah. So we’re also in times where people are really traumatized and they’re not always, were going to experience simulation and shame. You’re going to experience people’s pain and hurt coming out sideways at times, especially if you’ve become not a safe white person, but maybe even an inch of a safer person. And I just want to reiterate how many times I circle back to this, how easy and quick it is for me when I feel humiliated, when I feel exposed, when I have to contend again that i’ll, none of us, no human will ever be all good. We’re complex, but I think whiteness sets us up to believe that we are only good. And you can see that in what’s happening in our world right now, that we don’t want to tell any of the exposing stories. So they just all have to be lies. We’re going to ban all of these books in classrooms because we don’t want our kids exposed to these stories. It’s going to hurt their identity, it’s going to shape their identity in damaging ways. And I just think, oh, I wish I didn’t circle back here so much, but I do. And it is why I find myself just like, okay, so tell me more, TJ, I stand in the Bible on this and I do want to be someone who when I really misstep or just am constantly needed to learn, and this will be a lifelong process. I’ve heard someone use the analogy of white supremacy is a little bit like being an alcoholic. And in some ways you are in a sober journey. And when you’re choosing sobriety, that’s a very intentional active kind of pursuit, and you need constant moments of grace to get back up and try again. And those words are just so real. I think for me as a two on the Enneagram, when I am humiliated and my attempts aren’t helpful and I didn’t get it right or I’m exposed in my performative actions or whatever, it’s like I do, I want to go on the offensive like, all right, let’s fight and now I’m going to just whatever. And I hate that. I hate that feeling. And also, of course, it’s there and I want to get back up. I know for me, in order to do that, I’ve had to be in healing processes of formation and transformation. That’s not just true for me in my racial identity development. It’s true for me in my development in many other parts of my identity and my pursuit of maturity and health and wholeness. And we’ve kind of put some words to the collective stories for white folks, our cultural stories, we don’t know yet enough. We don’t actually have a clear enough sense of the story and definitely not in a very embodied way. And that’s something we really value here at the Allender Center and why we’re having this conversation with the Allender Center is that sense that story work is really important to engage our shame and to take seriously our suffering, not just to heal individually, but so that our healing is actually strengthening the collective or if you will, the kingdom of God. And so yeah, talk to me more about this word formation and what you’ve learned at this unique intersection.

TJ: Right. Well, I think I want to swing back to the collective story first because when you brought up the banned books and those things, I think that’s just such an indictment of our unwillingness really to look at story in a collective sense. And I know the people who are listening to The Allender Center podcast probably value story and have done individual work and their individual story, and we need to bring those same eyes, that same curiosity, that same fierce determination to look at the things that actually we would prefer not to look at, to the collective stories because that is where healing is. We have to face what is true. But I’m very compelled by the word formation because I think it makes it so much more clear that this is what happens in our bodies over time. You can’t be formed for 40 or 50 years in whiteness and then read a book or go to a training and think that that is going to make you different in a bodily sense. Now, please go to trainings and please read books primarily by people of color, And also those things are formational, I have done reading that has been formational to me, I have been in context and trainings and communities that have been formational, and also nothing on its own. None of those on their own are formation, like the entirety of formation. So I just really like that word because I think it helps us see what we’re doing and what we’re really up against. You used the analogy of an alcoholic sobriety journey. I’ll use also the analogy of a car. I think back to the first vehicle I ever drove, which was a 1979 Ford f150. And in older cars you could think about their alignment might be off a little bit. So I’m also like, I just think in metaphors and I think about having to exert some force on a steering wheel in order to actually drive straight. And I think that that is an analogy that helps me when I think about whiteness because force is being exerted on me right now. Of course, it’s going to take my whole lifetime to unform and reform in the ways that whiteness has shaped me because it’s continuing to act on me even now. And I know that if I take my hands off the steering wheel, I’m not going to drive straight. So I think it does require intentional effort. I am aware that for some people hearing that, that might not sound very motivating and I want to say, but it can be. I think I want people to feel both responsibility and relief in the fact that this is lifetime, lifelong work. It should feel like responsibility because we actually really are responsible in the community of creation to steward our identities and our stories for the flourishing of the community. And I think there is a sense of a relief because I don’t need to know or do everything right now. And that’s not the invitation. The invitation is actually to being a lifelong learner.

Rachael: It’s really good. That’s a really good reminder and holding intention to realities that could be true. At the same time as we come to the last part of our conversation, I’m hoping, TJ, that you could bring some of your wisdom. I know you’ve been asking these questions like, okay, we need something to belong to more than our fear, our shame, our performance, our anxiety. And that one of the first places we stop when we realize that is we stop at, oh, we’re good white people and that we need to be in the work of formation. What have you found are possible anchors that help us belong to a deeper sense of belovedness within our identity? Not because I think another temptation is just to split it off somehow. Well, I mean, they’re going to hate that that’s part of my identity, or I’m going to be buried under a lot of shame. And that’s also what I hear that question of gives me some redemption from being white. And so I guess I’m curious, is there any, is there redemption? Not that white supremacy can be redeemed, but our identity as people, how do we belong?

TJ: Well, I’m aware that you asked me that before and I didn’t answer the question, so thank you for repeating the question. I think this, it is challenging to talk about because in one sense, we just do belong. What we’re really talking about is connecting to our experience of belonging. We do belong. We are beloved actually, just to let that settle in your bones, you, Rachel Clinton Chen, you belong. All the parts of you get to belong and all the parts of me get to belong. And what we’re really doing, we’re not creating belonging, we’re not creating belovedness. We are connecting to it. And nothing about our connection or our disconnection changes those realities that we just do belong. But I have found some things that help us build that connection. I think one is to the extent that you are able, that it is within your ability that you have the relationships or the access to resources to actually understand your family’s story does help with a sense of groundedness. I would say not knowing who your people are is not the same. It’s not having a people. I have people, I have several of them to be honest, because I have a mixture, but I belong. I have a place that I come from. And knowing that place actually makes a difference. But I would say it doesn’t change the fact, whether I know it or not, change the fact of whether it exists. Rebuilding that connection. And I think to the extent that you are able to to your family story and why that connection was lost. So really leaning into grief and lament I think is very important. There’s a whole system to grieve. There’s a whole system to work against as well, but the grief is incalculable. And often I think we connect as white, white bodied people. We are actually encouraged to connect to the grief and loss for black and indigenous and people of color in the system of whiteness. And that is so good and bright. And sometimes we can leave ourselves out of that equation as if we haven’t lost things. I think what we’ve lost is different. And I’m not trying to compare our journeys, but I’m just saying I can grieve individually and collectively that my disconnection from my people stems directly from white supremacy. The fact that I’m not connected to those stories is a direct result of white supremacy. So grieving those connections, rebuilding those connections, and I think becoming very practiced at that reorientation of I belong, that reorientation actually is the spiritual formation pathway that we get to walk day after day. And again, it’s so different. It’s kind of like what we were saying at the beginning about we belong to God. It’s so different where whether we say that at the end of our journey, at the end of our grief, at the end of our humiliation, at the end of our shame, at the end of our longing, all those different than if we use that to opt out of that journey. So it is hard to talk about because it exists already. We already belong. We are already so beloved. And what we are really responsible for is rebuilding those things that help us experience that so that we don’t just sit around, oh, I’m so beloved, but actually me. This propels me into the action, into service, into joyful anti-racist action into joyful reparations and restitution and repair and repentance. We get to do those things with joy and not out of a sense of to make up for who we are.

Rachael: It makes me think of Romans 8 and the kind of bookends of Romans 8 are that we’re not under condemnation and we are beloved. There’s nothing that can separate us from love, but the whole middle part of that is, and there’s suffering. Absolutely. And there’s groaning and there’s formation and transformation, and there’s a good work that needs to keep happening and come to completion in the here and now, not just in some eternal someday where we’re divorced and disembodied and somehow all just blobs who don’t have any of our particularity, even though if you believe Jesus is alive somewhere, Jesus is still a Palestinian-Jew, Jewish man with scars in his hands. So there is something, I think that God in the incarnation and in this promise of a new creation and to be dwelling with us, that God will come and dwell with God’s people in a new creation says something that these particularities of us aren’t just going to disappear and be eradicated. They’re going to be a part of the kingdom of God now and forever, but hopefully fully redeemed. And yeah, I think where I was going with that is just, that’s a very different motivating joy than, well, I’m beloved, so I don’t have to live under your shame, and therefore I don’t have to care what you think about me. I’ve already got a ticket. And so I’m just want to say again how grateful I am for you, TJ, for your willingness to come and have this risky conversation with me. I hope for those of you that you found some encouragement and even some ways to reorient how you’ve been approaching some of this work. And I just want to say to you, TJ, thank you for being a friend and a part of a community of belonging for me, that you aren’t a friend who you don’t let me off the hook. You call me back in. You call me in ways when I need to be called back in and just for your work to pioneer and create imagination. So I’m just deeply grateful for you and yeah, I can’t wait to see and learn more with you and to co-create with you.

TJ: Thank you. It’s been fun to talk, and I feel the same way about you, and I think that that is the benefit of when we are putting ourselves in relationship with others, that we actually don’t, we don’t let each other off the hook in real authentic mutual relationships, nor do we shame each other. It’s a collective impulse towards flourishing and reminding each other of that desire, and I think that that is part of what we’re meant for.

Rachael: May it be so.