Creating a Better Marriage Through Story with Becky Allender

by on January 10, 2025

Becky Allender sits down with Rachael Clinton Chen for a one-on-one conversation this week. Becky reflects on how she and Dan have experienced profound transformation in their marriage, particularly since the Allender Center was founded in 2011. It was during this time that they began practicing the fundamentals of story engagement within their own relationship—a journey that not only changed their lives but also inspired the Marriage offerings at the Allender Center.

No matter what season you’re in—whether your relationship is new or you’ve been married for decades like Dan and Becky—there’s always something new to learn. Every step offers a chance to meet one another with greater kindness, compassion, and understanding.

Next week, Dan will rejoin the podcast conversation, but today, we hope you enjoy this episode with Becky and Rachael as they share their wisdom and reflections on marriage and connection.

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Episode Transcript:

Rachael: Good people with good bodies. I am very thrilled today to be joined by the one and only Becky Allender. Welcome, Becky.

Becky: It’s so funny. I don’t think I’ve ever been introduced that way, but it makes me feel very one and only special.

Rachael: Well, you are the one and only Becky Allender, and I’m interviewing you today without Dan and we’ll get a chance to talk more with Dan next week, which I look forward to, but it’s such a privilege for me to get to have this space with you, and I’m really looking forward to it.

Becky: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Rachael: Yeah.

Becky: With you alone, Rachael. It’s great.

Rachael: Yeah, this is beginning a short podcast series that we’re going to be doing, talking more about Dan and Steve Call’s book that’s coming out on marriage. It’s called The Deep Rooted Marriage. And of course, you and Steve’s wife, Lisa, have been a huge part of not only writing this book, but developing marriage content and marriage healing work. You guys do workshops, you do conferences, and our listeners have been very privileged that over many seasons, you and Dan have been so gracious to come on here and to share so much about your lives and especially your marriage. So I don’t take it for granted that you bring your vulnerability and your honesty and let us see the good and the hard, and all of those things mix together. So I’m excited that this book is coming out, but even more excited to talk with you more about your marriage.

Becky: Great, great. It’s a privilege for sure. I feel it. So thank you for having me on, Rachael.

Rachael: Yeah. Well, I just personally have just learned so much from you throughout the years, and I’ve always appreciated. You know when I met you, Becky, I had obviously met Dan first. I’d had him as a professor, but the first five minutes of talking with you in a real conversation, I was like, this is a wild woman. And it makes sense because these two both need to be pretty wild in their own way. So I would love to hear from you because this is not Dan’s first rodeo writing a book. You’ve also written a book, and so I want to hear a little bit more from you about that as well. But Hidden in Plain Sight is your book that came out into the world. How many years ago now has it been?

Becky: I think it was 2017 in November.

Rachael: Oh my gosh, okay. So almost eight years ago, which to me, I’m like, oh, it like two years ago. Okay, so eight years ago. So you also have your own writing process, but Dan’s written several books. So you’ve had the privilege and I’m sure at times, the frustration of being in a relationship with him when he is in the midst of a writing process. So what is it like for you when he is engrossed in writing a book?

Becky: Well, basically it’s no different because he is really good at working and staying busy, and always has been. And I look back when I think about when we were just dating, and he was a student in Philadelphia, so we would see each other when he came home to Columbus for maybe two days at a time, and then a few months later, two days more, and I remember a date we were going to go to the Red Door Tavern, and beforehand I memorized five points that I was going to bring to him with assurance that he could not be a lazy man. Because to me, I was seeing the student on breaks and then I became concerned. I’m not sure he’s a hard worker and that’s not going to work for me. So I look back at that and think, oh, how hilarious. And I had no idea that Dan was certainly laughing inside with all this accusation I was bringing to him about not working hard enough. So I think from the get go, he just always has been a hard worker, and I don’t even know what he does some of the time, but I always respected that from him.

Rachael: I just also have privilege of knowing the start of your guys’ love story. And this kind of vignette about the five points reminds me of just the start of your guys’ love story and how fierce you were in your convictions, and I appreciate that about you, and I think it’s good. Are there places where when Dan is hyper-focused in a project or a work project that it’s triggering?

Becky: Yeah, and again, I’ll look back to the beginning. When we started in our marriage, he was a minister for a while, a pastor. And on weekends that he wasn’t preaching, he would read an entire Robert Ludlum novel in two and a half days. And because of my story, I didn’t want to nag him. I wanted to give him his space. But looking back at that, we didn’t even know about hyper-focused. We didn’t know about ADD, and certainly that’s who he is. So it’s usually as worked to be pretty productive, but sometimes I feel like bored or left out or get with the program, your wife is here in this room. And how it is now, we have a kitchen with the couch nearby, and often I’ll ask him a question and he is in his normal seat, and he said, don’t you see I’m working? I’m like, no, you look just the same as if you’re watching the news, you’re in the same place. So yeah, we still have that. I’m like, well put a flag up.

Rachael: Yeah, I can relate to that because Michael, my husband is, I think him and Dan are very different people, but he’s such a deep thinker and it’s like he’s always working on something in his mind, and I can be like, hello? Excuse me, you’re sitting at the counter. I asked you a question. And he’s like, I’m pondering the kindness of God. And I’m like, well, how am I supposed to know that you’re not just scrolling Facebook?

Becky: Exactly. Exactly. I was at a church retreat in the last spring and a couple women said, wow, what’s it like to be married to Dan Allender? And I said, well, he’s in his head a lot of the time because it’s not always profound.

Rachael: And you guys have a very playful, playful way. I mean, a lot of knowledge, a lot of depth, a lot of labor, but a very playful way of bringing honoring disruption to each other in some of these places. And I was just curious for you, because you had your own writing process, how would you say, what’s your writing process when you are working on a project that requires you to kind of go interior a little bit? Is it similar? Is it different?

Becky: I think probably both different and the same. To me, the hardest thing is to know what to write about. And so if sometimes I’ll have Dan help me to know, and with Red Tent Living, there was always a phrase, which to me that made it fun like a puzzle, how to do that. So I’ve not been writing regularly and I’m being prompted in my heart to come up with some ways to get me back in the writing scene. So I’m not sure if that answered your question, but I do like Dan’s feedback and I do, because a lot of times he’ll say, delete it, the whole thing, it’s bad. And I am usually not that in the beginning of it, not that wedded with it. So I’m just grateful that I didn’t waste more time on it. So I think what I do is I ask him more often for help than he would ever think of asking me for help, which works. It’s time efficient.

Rachael: Yeah. Well, it’s like different writing styles too. Some of us, I’m very similar to that. I need to talk something out and have a dialogue about it and get it out of my head and play with it, see if it’s connecting. I’m similar to you. I need the feedback to keep writing. And some people just kind of want to have their own process and then get feedback and whatever. I’m much more, I don’t know if I would say I’m a writer. I’m probably more of a talker, so. But this book, Deep Rooted Marriage, I mean, you guys have been doing marriage work for a long season, whether that’s been formal or informal. What was it like to, I mean, you did help write part of this book and it has to do a lot with you and your life and your guys’ story. So what was it like to reflect together on your marriage for something in a written form?

Becky: It was difficult at times because I would write a response and maybe the editor would completely change things around, and I found that really hard. And so I was very aware of Dan because he would have hours where he would’ve written, and then all of it goes away. And so that’s really tough. You waste, it feels like wasted time, but to get to it, but with… sometimes I didn’t like writing the responses to Dan because he had his, that’s just how it worked,

Rachael: Already determined the conversation. And you’re like, what if I want to have another conversation?

Becky: I know I don’t like where that went, and please don’t let me… Can you start over so I can write about something else? And so that never happened, of course. So in some regard, it was very vulnerable and it didn’t feel enjoyable, but I’m glad that we could both look at both sides. And then we did have a very good editor that would help reel us in one way or another. So it’s different to write in tandem, which was new for me.

Rachael: Yeah, definitely. In some ways, probably a follow up to that question is how does this work you all do to talk about how to support marriages, how to help marriages thrive, whether that’s in writing or the workshops or conferences or the intensives that I know you guys have gotten to do with Steve and Lisa and Reconnect. How has that shown up as a benefit for you? Or maybe you’d say it doesn’t, and that’s okay too, but how, are there ways that it’s kind of invited you to deeper work, and what would be some of those key areas of marriage work that people would need to hear? Yeah, this is the work we’re doing that’s ongoing, and here’s some of the work you’ll probably be invited to.

Becky: Yes, yes. Well, Dan has been teaching on marriage and written other books on marriage, but I feel like this one is completely different in the way it causes us to remember our own story, our family of origin, and then how that set us up to be who the people we are. And so therefore, you’re things that will irritate me about Dan all be these triggers, what we call them. I have grown through the Allender Center trainings to understand more of how I was raised, what my mother and my father and their issues brought as they raised me. And so what it’s done is it’s a whole new deal right now given we married in 1977, it’s like now we have this new way of addressing our hurts or our anger. We have a deeper layer to go to why? And so there’s a curiosity that’s new with us. And I guess that phrase, you can teach old dogs new tricks. It’s really true. Who knew that the last few years? Well, 14, I think since the Allender Center. And I’ve been hearing all the teaching that the whole teaching crowd has done over these years, and it’s changed my life. So number one, I think it’s allowed me to be kinder to myself and also allowed me to see, oh, how different Dan is. I love, on the whole, Dan is not a defensive man. I find that miraculous. How can you live on this planet and not have to have an answer always? But then of course, and my brother and my sister and I, we always needed a defense. We were always watching our back. And that was from the very beginning. But that’s not Dan’s story. So I think I see his strengths, but then I understand, oh, well, he is that way because he didn’t have what I had that kind of made it different for me. So it’s never boring because there’s always more to try and remember and reflect. And so we are just having really a good time. Now we do have our disagreements, but I think this whole idea of whoa, whoa, whoa, step back, stop and gaze through a different lens has changed so much that I don’t feel like I have to be this mean woman that’s not going to budge, because I know that’s not his heart, nor is it mine. So I mean, we still have our struggles. We’ll never arrive on this side of heaven, but it’s a whole new layer of intrigue. And actually, someone said to me from my church Bible study, gosh, it just sounds like you and Dan entertain one another. And it was so kind of fluffy and funny. She has a soft voice whispers and she’s gorgeous. But I’m like, I think we do actually have those morning walks that there’s so much to talk about and be curious about with one another.

Rachael: Well, and you’re putting words to that. So much of the work you’re inviting people to is to understand their story, is to understand how their trauma histories and their family of origin have shaped your language of defensiveness, a certain style of relating, and whether it is moving away from someone or moving towards someone, even if the toward or against, I’m probably a little bit of a toward and against, it’s like, I’m going to move towards you, but I’m probably going to also invite you to fight me. I’m not going to go away, but I’m married to someone whose style of relating is more to move away. And so you can imagine the way we trigger each other when I’m like, you’ll engage me. And he’s like, I will not engage you. And then it’s like I’m chasing him and he’s like, get away. Just internally that emotional world. Exactly. Just like you named. Okay. Defensiveness is a part of how your style of relating has been shaped by your family, by your trauma history. I know Dan has style of relating that can be tricky, that is shaped by his family as well. And I just want to note that, because the way you talked about it was kind of like, because he’s not defensive, he got only strengths, and I know that’s not what you’re saying.

Becky: Yeah, no. Yes. I mean, right. We’ve changed a lot. I think he was, I didn’t realize in some regard that he was kind of a bully. I mean, my love clouded over that. And then I was kind of used to having strong parents that I guess you could say kind of bullied sometimes. So it fit together, but then there is that, oh, no, no. So it ebbs and flows. It’s never quite the same. And hopefully that we are gaining more strengths than we would’ve never had opportunity to do without these struggles or fights.

Rachael: Well, and I love your sense of so much of marriage work when it comes to story. Work is growing, intrigue is growing, curiosity. And what I hear you saying is that instead of like, oh, you had a season of curiosity and now you guys know everything and you’ve figured it all out, it’s almost like no, the curiosity and the intrigue only grows the more you see and the more about yourself and the more you seek to know and understand about the other. And like I was saying earlier, my experience of you and Dan is that you have a lot of similar ferocity. It looked different. You have similar intensity and brilliance and playfulness that I’ve just been really grateful to get to witness sometimes even from afar. And you are very different. I think, if I remember correctly, Dan is an Enneagram eight, and you are an Enneagram nine, which is a lot of people are like a nine with an eight wing. And so those are very interesting Enneagram types in a marriage.

Becky: Yes, yes. They’re good. And they’re until they’re not

Rachael: All of ’em, right?

Becky: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, when we were first married, we would go out to eat with people, and then Dan would share something that was something I had never heard before, and I’d get so hurt and so angry, and I tried to figure it out on my own. I’m like, maybe it’s because of his mother who wanted to always know things that he just withholds information. And then I really tried hard to give him an out, and that wasn’t it at all. It’s just he’s, life is fast. And I’ve had to say, tell me things before we’re in a setting where I feel so left out. And so that’s a trigger for me too with his life through all the students. My goodness, since 1982, I don’t always feel a part of things. So it’s always flowing and we’re always stepping back. And then it’s really good to be able to sit down and talk it through, which I hope this book in the companion guide, I hope it’s not arduous. I hope it’s like, oh, wow, this is a new way. Or now I’m going to have my say in it all. Because there is a time to process. And I think the book and the companion guide will give that opportunity to actually take time and write, because sometimes it’s in that writing that you’re able to name. And if you don’t name the issue, if you don’t name the sorrow, if you don’t name the anger, you’re just like in a whirlpool, that’s just not going to get you on the beach ever.

Rachael: I can relate to that because I’m a two in the Enneagram and Michael’s a nine. And when you read about, oh, these two go together really well. But then when you read about what are the, I don’t know, challenges, it’s like these two will avoid conflict and not tell the truth about what’s actually in the water to try to hold on to the union. But then it’s the two will get passive aggressive and the nine will get passive aggressive. And that’s how they’ll be communicating their hurt, but not directly. And I think your sense of saying, yeah, you can’t change what you can’t name. Sometimes the first step in leaning into healing a marriage or growing greater intimacy or depth is finding the honesty to tell the truth about how you feel, even in the terror of what does that mean for our bond, for our union? And are there other things that you feel like or you hope people will grow in as they engage this work?

Becky: Well, I hope it’s a level playing ground because on this side of Eden, we’re broken. I’m a broken woman. Dan’s a broken man. The marriage can feel broken at times. It’s just the way it is. So to not let that be a barrier to lose hope, may it be a beginning of intrigue and kindness. So I hope it’s the kindness of God in the land of the living that couples will be able to find not only for themselves, but for their spouses too. And Rachael, I’m still kind of back there with the two and the nine with you and Michael. I think that these such a different marriage because Dan’s going to just come after me and one named, and it’s like, yeah, wow. I’m just sorry. I’m just blown away by that.

Rachael: Well, I have to say I’m getting a taste of it because Michael is a nine with a really strong eight wing that actually the more he’s growing in his identity, the more healing work he’s doing. He’s actually, that eight is getting stronger. And also he’s in a PhD for marriage and family therapy and just learning all kinds of things. So I feel like I’m getting a taste of in a good way, what is it like when someone is actually healing but becoming a little more direct? And then I have to choose if I’m going to have the courage to tell the truth. We were just talking the other day, something, a dynamic that I can share. Honestly, I just am grateful for your honesty, Becky, because I think it’s actually empowering to people who might go, well, if you wrote a marriage book and if you’re doing marriage work, then you’ve got it all figured out. So yeah, it’s hopeless for us. But one of my, as a two and as someone who really deep down does not trust anyone else to do the thing, whatever the thing is, and having a toddler has exposed that to the Nth degree. I’m trying to think of a moment I will with Evie’s sleep, the sleep deprivation especially, she was sick a couple of weeks ago and she’s up and she won’t take the cough medicine that I need her to take. And those are places where I get really triggered in my sense of, there’s help for you and you won’t receive it, and I feel like we’re all going to die. I mean, it really is such a big trigger. And so I’m like, I need your help, Michael. But the minute I give Evie to him so that I can calm down for a minute, she just spit the cough medicine all over herself and the bed, and it’s like, honey. And I’m like, God, I’m just try to help. And as a two who’s not able to be helpful, it just brings up a lot. But then instantly what I feel is like, okay, that’s enough. I’ll take her back now. And so we were just talking about it. I said, it’s got to be so confusing for you when I’m literally screaming, I need help, but at the end of the day, I don’t actually trust you to help even though you’re making yourself available. And it’s like, yeah, that’s a place in our marriage that I think plays out all the time where I might have resentment that he’s not helping me with something, but the minute he steps in to help me, I’m basically like, I don’t trust you and you’re not doing it right.

Becky: Oh, Rachael, that’s so good. That’s so good because in that language, how you told the story and then how you narrate it at the end makes it so clear. Oh, this is going to show up in other places too. And this is where you need kindness from Michael, and he needs it from you too, because it’s just we’re in this fallen world.

Rachael: And it’s kind of what you said, it’s actually led us to more curiosity around how did this come to be your sense, your way of relating in the world or your sense of trust in other people to help. And in those moments, I feel profound shame. Why am I like this? Why I am like this? This is crazy. And also, if I can just take a minute, it’s like I actually have a lot of compassion. What’s hard is when the kind of compassion or the knowledge doesn’t lead to instantaneous change. Okay, so I understand why I am doing this and it’s happening, and so I’m just going to stop doing it, right? And it’s like, no, we’re going to be in this pattern. Not that it doesn’t change or shift or get less severe or have growth, or I can have deeper trust. I’ve already seen that, but I’m like, yeah, this is probably going to be a pattern that plays out for us over a long season. And I do take hope in what you’re saying, that we’re not alone. It’s not like, oh, this book is just for the struggle-bus people. It’s like, no, we can all grow. There’s opportunity for growth for all of us.

Becky: There is. And it’s actually very, it’s kind of a new fun because you forget until someone says, what was it like when you were five going to kindergarten? And oddly enough, I have a lot of memories. I don’t have any memories of kindergarten. So we play this out with conversation as we walk or as we’re in the car. And it’s opening up so much more to understanding who not only your spouse is, but who yourself is. So I think I’m really hoping that this book just allows people for a whole new awareness of how to do this life together. And as you mentioned the Enneagram, and there’s all certain ways that we can classify ourselves that actually is helpful in, but still, it gets down to the end of the time, and you didn’t trust for that cough medicine to be helpful for Michael. We can talk all we want, but still we’re just like, that’s who we are.

Rachael: Well, it’s kind of part of what you’re saying is making me think of Gabor Maté. He’s a trauma specialist. And actually, I watched his documentary, the Wisdom of Trauma, and it made me think of you and Dan a lot because his wife is in the documentary, and she talks about how in his early career, he was gone all the time helping all these people, and then he would come home and just be depleted and grouchy and kind of all the stuff that doesn’t get tended to or nurtured when you’re on the road and you’re just pouring out, which she’d be the beneficiary of the kids would be the beneficiary of. And oh gosh, I’ve got to watch that. It’s really good. And I thought of you guys, because they were talking about how as they’re getting older, as he’s getting older and doing more work and becoming a more healed person, they’ve done work together to understand their stories and in some ways to understand the little people that are present with them, that was the language they use. And they kind of end it by saying that what’s been the great paradox of the marriage work they’ve done when it comes to trauma and story is that as they’re getting older, they miraculously actually feel like they’re getting younger because they’re getting to know these younger parts of them are now more a part of the marriage, a part of the story.

Becky: Oh, it’s so true. It’s so true. And then there’s tenderness, right? Then there’s more tenderness and there’s more kindness, and then all those good things. Because yeah, as we’re getting older, our young selves are still with us, and we haven’t really thought about them until in the last decade. And so it’s new, but it’s more childlike. I think what comes from being fully integrated, I guess, is what, well, I really want to watch that documentary. That sounds stunning. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it’s such a different time. I mean, Dan still works a lot. He’s just not on the road so that there’s, at least he knows the street names where we live now before we just keep moving. He never knew any street names. Oh my goodness. He’s always gone.

Rachael: Oh my goodness. You hold. And I think that’s why I am grateful that you came today and are sharing your wisdom and your life and your stories, because you do hold a lot of wisdom and you have lived a lot of life. And the fact that you’re still invested in doing this work in your own marriage, I think gives great encouragement to all of us that we always have an opportunity to become more youthful, to become more curious, to become more tender, and I think more courageous. Anything else you would want our listeners to hear as we bring this conversation to a close?

Becky: No, it was just a privilege to be with you, Rachael. Thank you for your wisdom and for your questions and just the joy of being with you.

Rachael: It’s just such a privilege. And I want to give another shout out to Hidden in Plain Sight as well, because I think you’ve brought some of that story into this conversation. So if you felt like you could really relate to some of the things Becky was saying, I think you would find her book to be just a healing balm and also deeper revelation into who Becky Allender is, and next week talk, we’ll invite Dan back to the table, have more conversation in part two of this conversation around deep rooted marriage and also your guys’ marriage. Yeah. So thank you again, Becky. So good to be with you.

Becky: My pleasure. Thank you so much Rachael.