Friendship Cycles, Part 2

After a relationship has ruptured, can there be repair? Dan and Rachael continue to talk through the cycle of friendship and the difficult process of reconciling a cherished friendship gone awry.

Dan asks, “How do you go how you trust someone who’s already harmed you to open the door to desire? Because to do that feels like you’re now taking on way more than the original wound. You’re taking on that shame on you first time for hurting me, shame on me the second time that I actually opened myself to further harm by wishing and opening the door to reconciliation.” 

Rachael shares, “It really does take a radical kind of hope. It takes a radical kind of vulnerability, humility, patience.”

Listen as they talk through their personal experiences of rupture and repair, and the wisdom we can find in Romans 12 to “be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer,” as we move toward reconciliation and restoration.

Note: This episode contains some explicit language; listener discretion is advised.

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Episode Transcript:

Dan: Rachael, let me ask you if you remember a podcast we did. We’re aging, aren’t we?

Rachael: I know exactly what you’re going to talk about.

Dan: Do you really? Then you go ahead, let me, let me test and see. I’ll tell you the truth once you tell me what I was thinking.

Rachael: Are you going to talk about the podcast we did on not being well, which like a total detour of the podcast we were intending to do because we were both unwell.

Dan: Freak me out. This is both the benefit of a long term good, holy, difficult relationship that you can predict that, before. Yes, I feel similar. I don’t want to talk about this and we’re going to talk about Psalm 55, A number of other passages about the process of reconciling with someone who’s hurt you or you’ve hurt someone else. And let’s just say I have actually asked three good friends and I’m going to disguise who they are because I fear that people might try to guess, but nonetheless, asked three friends do you have enemies you’re not reconciled with. Every one of them in some degree of ministry–I’ll leave it at that level, all answered, yeah, yeah. And I said, and can you give me a sense of 10, 50, 100 relationships where there has been significant brokenness, how many have been reconciled, even if it’s taken decades? And the curious look on all three faces, they were all zoom the look like… ohhh… And I said, that kind of tells me it’s not like a large number. And each person said maybe a couple over many years that was both incredibly discouraging, but also confirming what we’re about to step into is a realm of heartache, a realm where there really isn’t a lot of reason to have, oh, it is going to work out. It’s going to be fine. That kind of false, euphemistic hope. And so as we step into this how are you as we begin to talk about dealing with friends whom we are divided by?

Rachael: Oh, I feel like it’s such a painful, I mean, we talked about this, so this is our follow up that we said we would offer when you said we would offer it, I remember looking at you, are we the people to talk about rebuilding friendships? And I think yes, there, yes we are because we’re human and we have experience and we know heartache and we also know the possibility of restoration. So I think it’s interesting because I find myself going, huh, I wonder if this also… I mean we know it gets into attachment, but even as we’re starting, I find myself wrestling with the fact that I actually don’t have as hard a time moving toward repair when I’ve harmed someone that fits my story, fits my style of relating. I find that I want to be impacted when I’ve hurt someone. Again, if it’s a lose/lose situation where you’re never going to, then that’s a different story. I have the absolute hardest time getting it anywhere close to my desire for repair and reconciliation when someone has hurt me, which also fits my story and style.

Dan: No, I think it fits everyone’s story, at least I think it does that. Yeah. The reality is when you can clearly own, I failed. I didn’t keep a promise or I lied, or I’ve failed in some significant fashion. I think for most of us, where we can own our own failure, it creates a natural bridge to a declaration of desire when we’ve been hurt and therefore perceive whether accurately or not the other is more at the core of this division than we are. Then how do you go how you trust someone who’s already harmed you to open the door to desire? Because to do that feels like you’re now taking on way more than the original wound. You’re taking on that shame on you first time for hurting me, shame on me the second time that I actually opened myself to further harm by wishing and opening the door to reconciliation. So I think there’s so much more potential in that case, the feeling like I am such a fool for trying again. That’s not there when the clear log is in your own eye. Yeah. Does that seem to fit?

Rachael: No, that feels very true. Yeah.

Dan: So as we begin this process, I would just say it’s important for me as I’ve begun to look at friendships, that some friendships have waned because of this fading or attrition. And I don’t find those that difficult to reengage. When it’s due to a fading or attrition oftentimes all that needs to be done is reconnect and acknowledge, I’ve lost track, we’ve lost track, and I have either a desire to reengage, I’m going to be in the same city. I wonder if you wanted to meet. And sometimes those moments have created absolutely, I don’t know how we both fell out of one another’s orbits, a joint honoring that we both have in some sense spun away, but there would be goodness in coming back. Other times I found people, I really felt disappointed. And disappointment really is in so many ways, desire honored. It’s an honor to have somebody be disappointed in you because it actually means there’s desire on your behalf, our behalf, my behalf. But when disappointment moves into some degree of bitterness, we’re in a different realm.

Rachael: Sorry, I’m just looking at you because this is my full disclosure, human size, full disclosure as we’ve been in this process of talking about friendship, and we also have done some podcasts on grief, which I think maybe come out after this podcast. I’m having to contend with how I actually am in a place of a lot of bitterness and we’ll talk about why and how and all those things, just the ruminating on hurt and blame where you have convinced yourself in a very protective defensive posture. You have no log and these people that you once loved, that you have forgotten, that you loved, have hurt you. And it is that place and it’s such a young place of “never again”. But the reason why you saw my face and I know nobody else could see my face, is because you know I had to go to the podiatrist to get an ingrown toenail dealt with that got infected. And it’s a long story I don’t go into, but as I was sitting there, which often happens to me with God, a little bit like Jacob wrestling, except I have an ingrown toenail that’s infected, as I feel a little bit in this season, I was making the connection of my body is dealing with some toxicity right now. And part of it I’m wondering is postpartum toxicity of just bacteria and things. You’re breastfeeding, you got milk growing in your body. There’s just all kinds of things. But it’s actually my sixth or seventh ingrown, infected, ingrown toenail, not the same one in a few month period. So that tells me I got some toxic bacteria going on. Now I know that’s disgusting, but I did feel like the Spirit was like, if you think this is not connected to the bitterness taking root in your soul, please don’t make me have to bring you more prophetic pictures. So I am actually in a moment of feeling a lot of conviction and a deep desire for healing. And so I’m grateful to learn from you.

Dan: Well, again, let’s just say that an ingrown toenail just freaks me out. I mean, having surgery, I’m fine. Injuries, bleeding, motorcycle accident, broken ribs, I’m not fine, but I’m like, oh, whatever. Yeah. But I don’t know, there’s something about an ingrown toenail that just flips me out in that sense that your body is impaling your body. And in some, we won’t go much further, but that’s really true of bitterness. Like you are drinking the poison of your own hatred and who’s harmed in this process, certainly at one level is not the person that you’re angry at, but you are literally destroying yourself. But the reality is, in this case, we’re not talking about our own bitterness or we are, but also the bitterness of others. Because I think when we’re talking about reconciliation, it’s going to eventually require us to be able to name with the other where we are. And when there is attrition, disappointment, there’s always room. Maybe it’s not easy, but room to be able to say, I still want relationship with you. And to trust that there is likely some degree of mutuality in that. But wherever bitterness has become part of the phenomena, our own or the other, now what we have is the likelihood that that bitterness has moved into some accusatory structure, a kind, and I don’t have a better word for it than cursing, bitterness leads to cursing. And whenever you curse another human being, I would say it requires a choir. It requires something of gossip. So you not only curse, but you’re inviting others to curse with you the other. And in that you, you’re looking really at the phenomena of vengeance, that person is out to kill you and what, to be, again, we’re moving toward this. The reality is like Jesus doesn’t go, oh yeah, Dan isn’t that hard? It’s a simple, yeah, now love your enemy. Bless your enemy, pray for your enemy. And I’m like, hell no. You have got to be kidding. As difficult as forgiveness is, I think this is maybe the hardest thing to even conceive, let alone again conception, have it be birthed in you to move toward birth, but to actually birth movement toward blessing your enemy, it requires a radical movement of the heart. And I think that’s important to kind of own what’s it require. And I don’t know a more important passage for all that than Romans chapter 12. And it is a long chapter. And just to warn people, we’re not going to read the whole thing you can do, but when you think about Romans 12, I’m curious how you approach that chapter.

Rachael: Well, Romans 12, it’s the passage my husband and I put on our wedding ceremony as a foundation for our marriage and ministry and posture towards the world. And I think when I talk about this bitterness right now, I am talking about how I’m protecting myself against my perceived enemies who I feel have vengeance towards me. I feel like my bitterness keeps me safe because then I don’t have to be vulnerable and move towards them. So when there’s this language of isn’t Romans 12 like, bless those who persecute you, love your enemy practice this radical hospitality. And so even recently I was talking to Michael and I was ruminating about my pain and my hurt and my agony and my fear and that I’ll be assaulted or that these kind of perceptions of enemy of once beloved people is going to take me out. And so I need, I’m just going to be angry and it feels safer. And he just said, we’re going to be lovers. That’s our vow. We have vowed to be lovers. And thankfully was there was no judgment or demand. It’s always an invitation. And the truth is something in me does long to be someone who can practice those words. But when you say it requires transformation and with sobriety because there is no guarantee of safety, there is no guarantee that people will, and this is so much my story, that if you just are compelling enough, then those who wish you harm will see how good they really are and how much love you’ve really shared and change course. But that’s not been my lived experience in the moments of trauma in the moments. Because when we’re talking about enemies, especially enemies who are once friends, which is what we’re talking about, there is trauma, there is harm, there is fight, flight or freeze responses at play. So we don’t have the luxury of coming to this desire for repair and reconciliation with, okay, now we’re all going to choose to be levelheaded and we’ve all done our therapeutic work and we’ve dealt with our attachment struggles and we know how our story’s playing out. And so we’re going to come to the table with wisdom, humility, and vulnerability.

Dan: Yeah, it’s one of the realms that I would put words to is in a marriage where one partner is unfaithful sexually and has deeply broken the covenant made of faithfulness and honor and blessing, and is there the possibility of repair? And the answer is I’ve seen it exquisitely over 40 some years. Here’s the difficulty, there’s repair, but there will be a loss that will never be remade. And this is part of when I asked three dear friends about their experience that first of all, it’s pretty rare. Let’s just say it again. It is heartbreaking to say reconciliation is very rare, but even with the ones they put words to. And it was true with regard to an experience several of mine, that even with the repair, it was never, ever the same as it used to be. So what you’re living with is you’re doing a lot of work. And I think of it in terms of the exile of and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Yes, the people of God came back and repaired, but the repair was never the same as to what occurred and what was in one sense, the temple before the Babylonian, I said 70 AD, but there was a destruction then and certainly before then. It’s can I live with how much work needs to be engaged? And yet with the full awareness, we will never have the innocence. We’ll never have the simplicity and ease that there once was. And I’m thinking of course about couples who have had that severe break, but also with all friendships that there will always be a little bit of that hesitation, a little bit of that wondering that, again, can be healed. But oftentimes only in the context of being able to say, I’ll do the work of what Romans 12 holds. And in some ways, if you think about it quickly, Romans 12 is the beginning of Paul’s implication of ethics out of a long gospel development between chapters 1 and 11. It’s kind of like, all right, therefore, let your bodies be a holy sacrifice. Have sobriety about who you are, bless the diversity of gifts there are in the body. And I was particularly taken when he is talking about, I want you to be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. And that particular trilogy is what I found myself going… okay. Just even the phrase joyful in hope. What he’s saying is, look, hope is not naturally joyful. Right? Because you’re choosing to live out desire with regard to the future, and you’re facing profound uncertainty, at least in terms of a loss of a relationship, to be joyful in the hope it can be restored, feels like the ultimate, are you foolish or just stupid? And some combination thereof. And then to be patient in affliction, patient with myself and patient with the other, I think in some ways I have a harder time being patient with myself with regard to the healing needed for me to be reconciled. I would wish because of some inherent core maturity that wherever there was brokenness, I’m ready, I’m ready, I’m ready. Ready. But to actually be patient with affliction, I think in some ways Paul is getting at the reality that, no, after a significant injury, you’re not ready to go run a marathon. So there may be sometimes years between the breaking of fidelity and the capacity to actually be able to engage. But even in that period, can I be joyful in hope? Can I bless the desire that I really don’t want to be at enmity with this person? And then that third phrase, faithful in prayer. Come on. That’s the core of what Jesus is getting at in Matthew 5:44 in terms of love your enemies and pray for them., Will I let a person inhabit me, thinking about them, wishing well for them, and calling forth for God to be able to bless and bring goodness to those who have brought me harm? I hope it’s clear. That to me was the center of, oh, this is what’s required. If I want any degree of reconciliation.

Rachael: Just so convicted. It’s good. It’s good.

Dan: Well, I’d love to hear a bit more about the conviction. When you think about the people that you know have in mind with regard to the issue of joyful and hope, patient and affliction, faithful and prayer, what do you find your heart doing with,

Rachael: Oh, I mean, I’m back to that place of it feels so much safer to actually move toward despair. There is no hope. So I, to be even be joyful to even have hope would a little, and I say that, and there is a part of me, some of the best parts of me that do imagine a future. But like you said, not ever getting to go back to what it was. So it’s like imagining a desire for reconnection, knowing that it will have to become something new that still bears the scars. And that doesn’t mean it can’t be even more exquisite and stunning than what was, but there won’t be the freedom and innocence that there was so joy just to have hope and let that actually unfold and feel most true and honestly, patient with affliction. That’s where it gets tricky with the ruminating piece because there’s a little bit, I mean, it’s like, oh, I couldn’t hold onto that affliction. It’s feeding me. It’s reminding me why hope is stupid and dangerous. So there’s something of like, oh, I think the affliction I need to get to is the affliction of my desire. I got to, that’s the affliction I need to get to. And yeah, faithfully praying the way you said, will I let someone inhabit my body? What’s so funny is with ruminating, they are inhabiting your body. In a toxic way.

Dan: That’s exactly right.

Rachael: I’m like, oh, that actually sounds better. I do want to do that. That is my heart. But it feels dangerous.

Dan: Yeah. And again, can we just say it? Look, it’s dangerous one way or the other. As a motorcyclist, I just have been in many situations where defensive driving would’ve killed me. That you, you’ve got to make your decision that a car is raging up behind you and the traffic slowing down. And if you don’t make a decision to go to one lane or the other and try and lane split, this guy’s going to crush you. So, you have to drive at times, I don’t know if it’s the best word, offensively, but you may be dead if you do, you’re likely going to be dead if you don’t. But I think back to this notion of do you really want to poison yourself after you’ve already been in some sense stabbed by the other? Like taking the stab wound and pouring bitterness in feels like, and this is the worst part, le let me just say it. At some level, if they really are your enemy, not just perceived, but there is enough data to say, oh, this person really does want my destruction, then at some level, consciously or unwittingly, they want you bitter. They want you hard. Because in some ways it proves how wicked of a person you were to begin with than being able to say. And again, not in a kind of self-righteous way, but in an honest way, I pray for person X, Y, and Z every single day. No, but often enough to be able to say, I contest how joyful my hope is. And again, the key word here is patient. Patient, I’d almost say close to the word kind. Kind to my affliction and faithful in prayer, in which case then I’ve got the preparatory process for fruit to grow on this soil if there’s ever the opportunity for engagement. And that to me is I don’t have to be directly reconciled with those who I perceive to hate me or wish me harm. But I do have the response-ability to, in one sense, not let bitterness move me into accusations and then into creating gossip that creates this relational bind where I’m opposed to person X, Y, or Z with now a community and then feeling very righteous, oh my God, righteous in my vengeance. And I think a lot of justice oriented movements end up being actually another form of vengeance because there’s not the desire for reconciliation, a desire for true peace to occur. When we get angry, we feel entitled. And in that entitlement, a whole host of our heartache gets bound into a, you’re my enemy. What I would wonder is what have you seen perhaps in the work of reconciliation, what’s been required of you in order for some form of reconciliation to occur outside of the movement of your own heart?

Rachael: Let me get in my body. Cause this is such hard, this is such hard stuff in this season in our world. And my guess would be that anyone listening can just say it, just in a world that feels so fraught, families on edge with each other, and again, because of heartache, because of harm, because of repetitive, continual lack of flourishing and unwillingness to own, we’ve seen so little repair, true repair and experience, so little true repair that we really do struggle to have imagination for it. So vengeance, self-righteousness, entitlement to our pain feels like holy and good because we don’t want to be hurt. So I think for me, when I think about reconciliation, and I want to actually just be clear about this because I think there’s a lot of people listening who, especially because we talked about justice, who might move toward, well if people don’t want unity, and it’s like, well, we’re not talking about some false sense of, some people have to eat, excuse my French, shit, so that other people can feel okay. We all have experiences of that with someone, maybe a parent or a sibling or a family member or just a dear friend where the only way there can be “reconciliation” is if one person just eats the harm, eats the shame, eats the contempt and makes it like, oh yeah, everything’s fine. I forgive you. And that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about in a capacity to tell the truth about where we’re at and what has happened and what is the chasm between us and what is some of the debris that then is there. Because in our protective postures, we’ve brought more harm. And in our bitterness and vengeance, there’s even more harm. And yes, we don’t even know who we’re fighting anymore because we can’t see their face and we’ve lost a sense of their humanity or someone – we feel like someone’s lost a sense of our humanity. So when I think about what’s required and what I’ve seen, I keep going to how do you, I, be patient in affliction and kind to these tender places, at least for me. And this is not an apologetic, it’s just I cannot do it without some sense of experiencing God’s comfort of experiencing God’s attunement. And yes, being loved by actual people in my life who show me what I meant for who reflect back to me and mirror back to me who I am. But that sense of the places where I actually feel like I’m entitled to a kind of justice and vengeance that I think is right where I can have God move toward me with a sense of, I see you, your pain is valid, you have been harmed, and I’m not asking you to go and eat crap so that someone else can. So there can be a false sense of repair and reconciliation. So I think at the end of the day, knowing we’re not entitled to reconciliation. It’s what we’re meant for. It’s what is possible to us through the work of the Spirit, through vulnerability and through a movement to bless and not curse. So to me, I’m just going, oh, there’s care that I need. There   are places I need to be seen and known by God, there are tears. I probably need to cry before I’m ready for the kind of transformation that can move toward blessing, that can not be proud, not feel entitled to my anger and protect defensiveness, not kind of, you’ve said this to me before in other situations in my life, you’ll have to be the kind… You’ll have to hold on to your kindness because you will constantly be invited to a fight. And I can take that bait so easily. It is where sometimes I’m out here playing checkers with the world that’s playing chess.

Dan: That’s a brilliant way of putting it. By the way, I just need to clarify. I always thought the French word for shit was merde, but it may be just shit. So the reality of indeed the God of the universe who has created a banquet for each of us and a place of honor, Psalm 23, notice a place of honor and goodness of food in the presence of our enemies is not going to ask us to eat mirror or shit or anything of the interplay. So that notion then of a asking, look, my heart feels hard. I feel cornered in my own bitterness. You see, it’s that simple phrase of what scripture uses the New Testament Greek word, homologeo, which is the word confession. And it means saying the same thing as being able to, in one sense, look at reality and go, this is reality. And to me, the reality is can I own where I am and can we own where we are? I think that’s… If there’s a first step toward any form of reconciliation, can we admit right now we are enemies and I don’t trust you and you don’t trust me. But if both of us have some heart, some heart for being patient and affliction, then can we each say, and I don’t want to harm you, I want to bless you, enemy. But I think even that ability just name right now, we are enemies. It’s where one person goes, I’m not your enemy. Well, okay, I have felt like you are my enemy. Well, I’m not your enemy. And I’m like, okay, so I’m crazy because I perceive you to be my enemy, but now you’re telling me I’m not or you’re not. And so I’m even now even crazier. So shall we just put me on the altar, sacrifice me, and maybe it’s all going to be good. No, there has to be. Well then how is it that you perceive me to be your enemy? Well, this is what I’ve heard you’ve said about me, X, Y, Z. This is what happened at the end of our relationship. So how else would I perceive? Are we friends? We were friends, we’re not friends, we’re enemies. I think that simple beginning point allows a humility on both person’s part. But with that, it really comes, I think, a second framework. And that is, and do we want to bless one another? I don’t want you to remain as my enemy, but you are my enemy. I’m your enemy. How to do we want to bless? Which is another word of asking, what do you want? You tell me I failed you, X, Y, Z. Okay, what do you want? What do we want? And just a number of moons ago in a conflict that was finally being addressed, I was able to ask this person whom I was divided with, I said, what do you want? What do you want from me? What do you want from yourself in this conversation? And what this very kind and wise man said is, I don’t really want relationship with you in the future. I simply want us not to be enemies in the way that we currently are. And it was like, well, that’s really, and I said, that’s really hard to hear, but that feels honorable. I want to be able to speak about you privately, publicly. Well, right now, neither of us can do that. And that simple freedom of going, I don’t perceive that we will ever be friends like we once were. And it’s like, I get that. I concur. But at least we can hold one another with regard and speak well and wish well. And in that movement of clarity of desire there, there wasn’t “I want to be good friends again like we once were”. I think if he had said that, I would’ve known something in me was like, Ooh, too far, too fast and not enough acknowledgement. The scars will be permanent. We may be able to grow far more than either of us perceive, but at least being able to own, what do you want allows for now not just humility, but the framework of joyful hope in a way that you might not have had before.

Rachael: Which means when there’s that kind of hope, you can actually start to do the patient affliction work of naming with particularity. Not just, you hurt me, but here’s how you hurt me. And hearing that, right? Because part, this is why we so rarely get to this work because we can’t often bear to hear the particularity and without moving toward, well, that wasn’t my intention. And that involves lament, and it involves a lot of ownership on both sides. Cause you just can’t, with friendship again, the bitterness is there. The vengeance is there because you actually do have a lot of desire. And the only way you can mitigate that is sabotage and moving toward the sense of really addressing what we talked about. It’s like, what’s the debris now that’s in our wake? Because there’s maybe this initial fallout and initial breakdown, but now we’ve got all this debris. And that is a very patient work. And as we know, you can’t have reconciliation without a rebuilding of trust. And that takes time.

Dan: Yes. Yeah.

Rachael: Because you could say, I’m sorry, but if there’s not a commitment to transformation and to restoration of trust, which has to be shown, not just told. And again, takes time, takes intentionality.

Dan: Again the, I’ll use the complexity of a spouse having an affair. There’s a clear perpetrator, a clear victim. And that can’t change in terms of… you can’t say because you didn’t… You weren’t engaged sexually well enough, you weren’t sensitive enough. It justifies this other person having an affair. Here’s the complication. Though there is never warrantability to blame. There’s always a context that both of you have a log. So the fact that in every interaction, even when I am a deeply violated victim, I still have to deal with the log in my own eye. Not as an explanation for why you failed me, but I have to own the realities that are going to keep me from, again, being joyful, being patient, being prayerful, and whatever those are. Even if they’re very generic, I have my own trauma history and I am given to fight or flight or freeze. There’s still the ownership. It’s my body, it’s my engagement. And there is something in that when two parties can own, this is where we are. And it’s not where we wish to be. Meaning there is a desire to bless even if you remain an enemy. But when there can be any humility as you put it so well, to owning something of the debris in my own eye, let alone the debris that has come as a result of our own failure, particularly when it’s been communal, because very few divisions of friends are solitary, unitary without some degree of community. That’s right. Involvement. That’s right. And that’s where I would come back to this word, gossip. How have I gossiped and to whom? How have you gossiped and with whom? And what does it mean for us to engage the people we have aligned with us to justify something of the other person’s harm? And that is an often radically unaddressed reality. When we want some degree of reconciliation. We are just too radically individualistic rather than understanding that this is a collective process and it involves families, friendships, other friendships that have been in some sense of the word drug into the drama and either remain somewhat neutral or chosen sides. Now the question of if there’s even a movement to be able to say, you are my enemy and I long to bless you. If there’s ownership of the log that has to move to the debris that we’re beginning to put words to, because trust can’t be rebuilt until we begin to scope the land that’s been burned, not only between us, but within the communal world.

Rachael: I’m looking at you like, no wonder this is

Dan: Rare.

Rachael: Rare. Because it really does take a radical kind of hope. It takes a radical kind of vulnerability, humility, patience.

Dan: Yeah. Well, let me add one more. Shall we say complexity to this? We talked about the last time, that notion of skin. Yeah, I like being with you. We played together that idea of heart. That is some of my brokenness, some of my stories. And there is a alignment of heart together. It’s where you come to this third category, particularly of soul, when it involves formal employment interactions. Now we’re in deep doodoo because now, the friend you’ve just fired how do you keep a friendship with somebody that you have walked together to worship, but it’s actually been part of your job, part of your calling, your career. And now when we’re dealing, we’re not just dealing with two individuals, we’re dealing with systems, including state personnel law, and we’re dealing with the reality that when you start including money and the domain of the complexity of kingdom service, this is where what I would say is it. It’s a whole nother podcast. One in which what we can say is we’ve been dealing with just two people, not two people embedded in a church, two people embedded in a nonprofit organization, especially people who have started a church or an organization together where there is division. Now you’ve got a long history of sacrifice together that now cannot be held in the same way. So all we’re saying, even as we come to an end, is that no wonder as you put it, Rachael. It’s so rare that reconciliation occurs. But if I had to say one core element, do you desire? And in that maybe it won’t be until eternity, but what your heart will always be ready for is that knock on the door or for the prompting of the Spirit to make that phone call, to basically be able to say, I know we’re divided and, I’m sorry it has taken this long, but I think I have been patient with affliction long enough and I have prayed for you, prayed for me, prayed for us. Would you want a conversation? And that huge risk can open the door not to magic, not to everything being what it once was, but for evil to no longer gain the debris and access to it. That has created even more heartache for one another. May it be.