An Update About the Allender Center Podcast
Friends, there’s something we want to share with you about the Allender Center Podcast:
For more than a decade, we’ve released a new episode nearly every week. That’s 650+ episodes in 10 years. All free. We’re immensely proud of what we’ve created together. And we’re deeply grateful for the people who have listened, written to us, and made these conversations part of their lives.
Now, we’ve decided to slow our pace for a season. For the next few months, the podcast will be released twice a month.
To be clear, we’re not going anywhere. We’re simply making a little more room to pay attention to what’s next. After ten years of doing this every week, we need time to plan, listen, get creative, and try some things we haven’t had the space to try. We want to bring you more guests. More opportunities to hear from you. And we want to begin bringing these conversations to you in video format, inviting you into the room with us.
And we want to be honest about something else: this decision is also about finances. We’re doing our best to steward what we have, care well for our people, and still create the quality of work we believe in. We don’t want the answer to be asking our team to simply do more, faster, for less.
It’s important to us that you are part of this conversation, and a part of what comes next, too. There are two ways you can join us in this season:
1. Tell us what you think: You’ll hear in today’s episode that this decision wasn’t made lightly. There’s grief and frustration in it. There’s also hope, possibility, and a lot of imagination about what could come next. We want to hear from you, too. What has the podcast meant to you? What would you love to hear more of? What would you dream about for its future? Our team will read every response. We’d genuinely love to hear from you.
2. Support the podcast: Your monthly financial support helps us continue creating new episodes, continue to host our library of 650+ episodes, invest in the technology and resources we need, compensate the people behind the podcast well, and even move into a new video format. If you’d like to partner with us in what comes next, we’d be deeply grateful. You can become a monthly supporter at whatever amount feels right for you, starting at just $5 a month.
Whether you share your thoughts, support the podcast, keep listening, or simply tell someone about an episode that meant something to you, thank you for being part of this. We’re paying attention. We’re listening. And we’re excited to see what comes next.
With deep gratitude,
The Allender Center Podcast Team (Dan, Rachael, Jeanette, Andrew, Christena, Christina, Melissa, Lauren, Beth, Kelsey)
P.S. And one more way to be part of what’s next: We’re bringing the Allender Center Podcast LIVE to Nashville! If you’re nearby, come join us. We’d love to have you in the room for an evening of conversation and connection—and, of course, a live podcast experience. You can get tickets here.
About the Allender Center Podcast:
For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.
At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.
To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, click here. If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at cclayton@theallendercenter.org
Episode Transcript:
Dan: I don’t think it’s possible to live in our day, at least not my day, and not have at the intersection of disruption, of disappointment, of things that happen that just take you off something of the center. Now, occasionally I’ve been called eccentric, which I of course absolutely consider to be outlandishly untrue, but there are just moments where there are eccentric taking you off the center of things. Literally, we’ve had the privilege of doing a couple podcasts today and in between my dear, dear, dear friend, Dave and Meg, we were planning to visit in early October. He is suffering the diagnosis of Parkinson’s and perhaps worse. And Tremper and Alice, these are dear friends from college. We were planning to join and be with Dave and just literally just got a text saying that someone in Tremper’s family has passed. And the very weekend we’re supposed to be with Dave and Meg now has the competing demand, truly demand that they attend this funeral. So already just, I’m kind of reeling with how plans, desires that you have as a framework for living. All of a sudden, as we know, the phone call, the disruptive interaction simply moves you in a different way. So I’m going to just begin with that and to say I feel disrupted.
Rachael: Yeah. Disruption and disappointment and possibility and how all of those things swirl together. And I think part of what I hear you putting words to, Dan, and first of all, I just want to say I’m sorry to hear that.
Dan: Thank you.
Rachael: Because I know part of what I’m hearing and I think feels very true in our world just here at the Allender Center at the Seattle School is when those disruptions and the complexity is being held in relationship in organizations and communities, because it’s not just our personal hopes and desires and complexities. It’s a whole plethora of a system together, which makes it even more complex and more impactful, so to speak.
Dan: Yeah, I can’t imagine anyone beginning this, hearing this podcast would go, oh my gosh, that must be hard. Well, of course it’s hard, but I think we are living in a kind of disruptive day at social levels of new tariffs being perpetrated, the reality of a war that was supposed to be over in a few days becoming an endless war. I mean, earthquakes, forest fires, climate change, questions of whether or not I can actually pay for the transportation I need to have to be able to get to my job, but also pay for insurance and for… So I mean, as we open the door to this discussion on disruption, disappointment, but also I love that phrase, a possibility and in some sense of the word opportunity. And that’s what I think I’m finding myself having a hard time holding because loss so often, even when it’s not the catastrophic losses, sometimes narrows our vision to no longer see all the good that can begin to come even in the middle of what is disruptive and disappointing. So thank you for holding that. And we actually have other, I would say other disruptive, disappointing, but also opportune and anticipatory news.
Rachael: Are you leaving me to bring the news?
Dan: Why not? I’ve already had mine today.
Rachael: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So part of the reality we’re facing here, even with the Allender Center podcast, because the word I’m thinking about is stewardship, right? How do we steward seasons where there’s complexity that is going to bear disappointment and possibility that our podcast here at the Allender Center, which has been a weekly podcast, I’m trying to do the math, but I know for over a decade because I’m thinking about how many episodes, what number of episode we’re on and we’re up in the 650s, so is going to be moving to an, I think the right word is bimonthly, but I would just say every other week podcast rhythm for the next six months. As our context is navigating competing needs with regard to finances and team capacity, you may or may not know this, but I think we’ve talked about this maybe in some invitations to join us in support, to pull off a podcast in general, takes a pretty robust team and a pretty robust effort and is not something that we do just without having to pay even a financial cost and a team cost. So in order to be a good team player in the midst of our larger context and to explore some opportunity with the Allender Center podcast, we’re going to be moving to an every other week podcast. Our deep hope is to return to a weekly podcast next spring, 2027, which is wild to say because I’m reckoning with the fact that we’re coming to fall of 2026. But I think part of that possibility and opportunity is that in the meantime of switching to a different cadence, we’re going to be launching additional fundraising campaigns and other efforts to really support and sustain this production because one thing we’ve heard loud and clear from everyone involved is that this is a really important, valuable part of our work at the Allender Center. So there is an intention to return to a weekly cadence just as we lean in to what is the reality of the now.
Dan: Yeah, even if it’d be a wonderful dream that somebody goes, oh, you know what? I just won the Powerball and that was like a billion dollars and they have now 453 million after taxes. Yeah, here’s a check for umpteen million. That’d be great. That would be great. And if indeed you have that access, please send us a check. Nonetheless, it’s also about our staff’s exhaustion and we have a remarkable staff, but they also serve other portions of the Seattle school. We are embedded, the Allender Center, in a lovely confederation with the Seattle School and the realms require a lot of labor. And so we’re not just with a team working with us, but a team working with other components. So I think there is an acknowledgement of what I would call the post – COVID show up of, man, we have done a lot over a long period on a lot of thin air, and yet I think I prize our team. I think the two of us have done well, but behind the scenes, we wouldn’t have been able to do what we do without their labor. But I still feel, even as I’m talking, I’m like, oh, I love seeing who we consider our boss, Andrew, who produces this, but there will be less interaction between the two of us in the same way that we’ve been having. So I feel disappointment and I want to resolve it, and yet it isn’t just money. It’s also, can we do the fundamental coming back into the building knowing that we need to do, shall we say, knock down a few doors, rip off some wall and work on what needs to do to be done to make it better? And for somebody who’s literally in the middle of that right now, how does that echo for you?
Rachael: Oh, like torture. I think I’ve shared on the podcast that we are in the midst of a reconstructive process after a mold remediation process here in Philly. And even as we talk today, Dan, you’re right, there’s hammers and saws and beautiful work being done that I’m so grateful for and I’m quite weary of. And I think your sense of… So I feel both a grief and I feel my own exhaustion of maintaining the pace and the quality that we seek and the depth of conversations that we’re having. And it’s not lost on me. I mean, I’m experiencing, yes, a moment where you have to pause and be really intentional and slow down and check out your duct work in your house and get some new insulation and some more secure doors. And I won’t take that metaphor too far because I’m not sure that’s quite the season that we’re in, but I am aware that the state of our world right now is causing people, families, churches, certainly nonprofits, schools, and I know many businesses, especially small businesses, to reckon with realities that are a convergence of being in a global crisis, of an administration that is making decisions that have drastic implications on finances, on where and how people want to do labor and work. And so I know you and I have talked at length about the pressures and almost impossibilities facing the ecclesial and nonprofit worlds. And maybe to help those who need to feel like you’re not alone and you’re not crazy and you’re not insane and it’s not just you, we could put a few more words to what have we noticed, not just in our own context, but in the larger world seeking to do the larger context of people and places and communities seeking to do good work in the world up against some impossible complexities. What have you noticed, Dan? What have we talked about?
Dan: I want to come back to, I think a really important word, and that’s the word steward. How have you stewarded disappointment, and not just here, but in other contexts? Because I mean, I’ve been watching literally at times looking at what I would call the ravaged interior of your home, and it has been anything but easy, so disruptive. You and Michael have created such a place of goodness and someone’s mistakes when they built your home created a context in which water was coming in from multiple sources, there was mold, there’s the potential for illness. This has to be done. And we feel the same with regard to the choice to go to every other week. It needs to be done, but there’s just something in that that I know in my own mind, I can say that and then the next sentence is, But can we find a way around it? Can we just find a way around it? And there is something really lovely about trying to imagine, but it becomes not opportunity, it becomes demand. And so I know for myself, one of the things that I’ve had to tend to in order to steward this decision well is I have thrown a number of very strong parties filled on pout, which I’ve invited you to, of course, to join me in my pouting. So when things don’t work with something that I love, as I do love the privilege of being on this podcast with you, disappointed, it’s not the same as pouting. I think I’ve clearly mishandled my disappointment into a demand that becomes a grumpy, curmudgeonly, I’m going to quit. I’m just going to quit. So how have you engaged me and how have you engaged perhaps some very small part of you that’s pouted?
Rachael: Yeah. I mean, I think I’ve been aware of myself when I move to places of threat and fight and a kind of dysregulation, like an agitation that pouting feels yes, but it’s like there’s an agitation I’m learning in my own life to try to the extent that I can to slow down and be like, what sadness or vulnerability that feels way too threatening to name is actually under the surface. And so I think I’ve been very aware of you and of me and our team of just anytime you have to give up a part of something, I mean, again, we’re not going anywhere. We’re still going to be here regularly engaging. It’s just we don’t get to do it for every week for a season, but it felt significant and it felt like a significant disruption that I think also is almost like a flare. I think about autoimmune disorders when your body sends up a, there’s danger. And so I’ve also been very aware for you that it did feel very threatening and it did feel very dangerous. What’s going to be taken and what does this mean? And what’s the goal? And you have so many stories in your life of beautiful things that you’ve created in collaboration with people that you’ve been kicked out of or just without honor, without even someone with their full chest being able to be like, this is what I’m doing, why? Which I know it’s a pretty rare thing to actually get the full chest, this is what I’m doing and why and what it’s all connected to. So I’ve also been aware that anytime we have a thematic experience in life and then something feels similar and we don’t have necessarily the control we’d like to have. Again, it’s like, man, I was in denial about our house. I waited. I waited until there was enough symptomology to be like, okay, we have to deal with this. Because some part of me knew if I bring a mold remediator in here and they start opening things up, how much are they going to have to open up? How long? And I was very delusional too because I was genuinely like, we could repair this in a month. No, you have to go through an insurance claim. You have to find a contractor. You have to get in their queue, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, I think in some ways because of the season that I’ve been in our very personal interior world, I’ve been in enough disruption that I maybe had less, I had a little bit more like, well, yeah, disruption is everywhere. I think I’m in a little bit of a season of everything changes, and everything is chaotic…
Dan: It’s normative. It’s like just you’re freaking life.
Rachael: …and you just take it one step at a time because that’s just the season that I’m in.
Dan: Well, and it’s so helpful to, again, hear that we’re in different worlds. I don’t think my world has the level of chaos that yours has had over a very significant process, but it’s also so important to hear that disappointment when it occurs is multi-level, multi-layered. And the disappointment, you’re right, of course we get to keep doing this, just not as much. But it was triggering something so much more for me than just the disappointment of not being able to do this weekly. And Becky and I were talking about it on one of our walks, and at one point she just said, “Are you thinking at all about mortality through this?” I’m like, I said something actually out loud that I probably won’t say right now, but no, no, I’m not thinking about that. And she was like, “Well, first of all, are you aware as an old man,” only a woman older than me can say that. “As an old man, are you aware what a privilege you have to still be involved in the work that you’re part of?” A lot of our friends who have been in churches and other ecclesial settings and other parachurch, you get to be 66, 67, 68, and basically it’s like, you’re too old, time to go. And I can think of so many names right now of dear friends who have so much to offer, but their worlds have invited them into the pasture’s preparation for departure. You haven’t been. And I’m like, okay, yeah, whatever. When disappointment is engaged, it is very hard to come to any level of gratitude, but I’m grateful that this walk was longer than a few minutes and that context just setting, we get to do this. I am so grateful we get to do this at all, but it took a bit of labor to come into that. And then what Becky began to underscore was appropriately at the Allender Center and in a lot of what we’re doing, succession has occurred. I used to teach when we did our Narrative Focused Trauma Care, I used to teach 100% and then it got to be a little bit less, a little bit less, a little bit less, but I was still in the range of teaching 80, 90%. We’re moving with brilliant teachers, including you dear friend, brilliant teachers who offer so much more than I can alone. So we’ve got an incredible team teaching multiply in many settings. So I’m down to 20, 25% teaching, which is still a lot given my vaunted and decrepit age. All that to say, to be in the context of this, there really, really is a sense that what she was beginning to ask me to engage is this is something that feels every week, something you look forward to. You don’t have to in some sense give up any. You’re not going from 100% down to 20%. And I’m like, oh, now things are stirring. Now I feel close to tears. I also am angry and yet I don’t want her to talk to me. This is the labor of what I consider to be stewarding that’s required to allow your heart to know there are always deeper layers that are involved in any disruption or disappointment.
Rachael: I felt very protective of you in this process because I’m like, everyone, there’s multiple layers of how we hear these kinds of decisions and especially for Dan in this season of life. And so there’s something that actually feels like a great gift that Becky would invite you to these waters and feels like similar to conversations we’ve had on the podcast of I’m not well. It’s like, yeah, we’re real humans. And I think you’re absolutely right. Part of stewarding change that involves disappointment and fear, real legitimate fear is getting to be honest about what’s there. That’s why I can laugh with you about pouting and I also feel like it’s deeper than that. It’s more meaningful than that. It’s more in story than that. Yeah, in our context definitely matters. I’m just laughing. I’m connecting with myself like, oh, where has my fight with this been? Oh, it’s been, you know what? You want to take something off my plate? Go for it. Just take everything. I think that’s what I feel with Jesus right now. I’m just going to be a hermit who lives in a little tiny house in a hill. Where’s my bunker? I need safety. Nothing feels safe. So simplicity and security and solitude. So you’re inviting me to probably get a little more in my body around this season of life. And it’s making me think a lot about, because you and I certainly have leadership roles we play in certain capacities, but we’re also liberated right now to steward that leadership in a different kind of way and thinking about the very difficult complex choices facing leaders at such a time as this and how very few have their own capacity to slow down and tend to the stories underneath multiple decisions being made.
Dan: And to underscore, we didn’t make this decision.
Rachael: That’s what I’m saying.
Dan: Our boss.
Rachael: That’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m trying to say.
Dan: Jeanette, our Executive Director for the Allender Center and her larger team came with both, shall we say, the proposal and something of the decision. So the process of living in any organization, and somebody the other day said, “So I mean, you clearly are the boss because it’s your name on the organization.” I didn’t say much. I had a whole lot of thoughts run through my mind, but what I said was, “No, we’re a team and I do have influence, but I’m not the boss.” And Jeanette made, from my standpoint, a very courageous decision to orient us to a revision, knowing the finances in a way that I don’t and don’t want to actually know fully in the way she has to, but also creating a context where it’s a time to pause, to do reflection. We’re going to do a lot more analytics during this season. We’re going to have some of our staff begin the process of interacting with some of you directly to get data. In other words, slow things down to be able to get data, to be able to, in one sense, prepare for the season ahead. Now, a lot of that obviously depends on financing. And if we don’t get greater financing, we may be still for a longer season every other week. But I do think this is, back to that word, it really is an opportunity. Once you begin to metabolize disappointment and your normal responses, I’m not usually a pouter, I’m usually a fighter, but I fought the decision in a pouty way and eventually came to be able to see, okay, this not only makes sense, this has the potential to lead to greater clarity, what we’re doing, how we’re doing it, how our team is responding, but also the exigency is it puts the practicality of we need your money. We need help if this is helpful. And it does bring us back to that core of there is no mission without margin. There is no ability to continue to do whatever is good. And living with the reality that there has been so many funding struggles and so many of the ministries that I have a heart for, we are not the only ones asking and certainly not the only ones who are bringing something good. So it is a season where people are fighting to find the finances just to be able to function in their own life, let alone thinking about how they can be part of struggling situations. So I think it is coming to terms, coming to reality. And also, at least in the context of a lot of my struggle through this, I was just curious if in my normal reading of scripture, if there would be any moment where Jesus would just sort of go, “I have this for you.” And it happened a while back, but it stayed with me. And it’s really from Psalm 18:19. And it is, “He brought me out into a broad place. He rescued me because he delighted in me.” And I remember much like interacting with Becky as she was beginning to invite me to face more reality, there was something in that it’s a very comforting verse, but not in the context I was reading it. I’m not feeling like this is a decision that brings us into a broad place. It’s narrowing. It’s not broad. It feels like the result of somehow not being rescued, therefore the sense of God not delighting. And all that to say, I don’t know how you read scripture, but most of the time I read in a way that’s adversarial. I seldom just read with a kind of, “Oh, isn’t that beautiful? I love that. God’s delighting in me.” I may get there. Sometimes I really do, but in this case it was like, it’s not broad. It’s not rescue a little bit more than pouting, shall we say, but it’s how scripture I think weathers us. In that it speaks to the deepest, deepest parts of us that long for what we know to be true to be true. So I’m curious for you back to that question of how are you stewarding a house that’s being dismantled? How are you stewarding this process? Even with courageous, good people like Jeanette who made good and hard decisions, which now require of us, and to some degree, probably some listeners, metabolizing disappointment.
Rachael: I think letting grief actually be real so that you can move to more creativity because I think it’s like the refusal to grieve that could feel like, no, I actually just need this to turn out another way. That’s the only option. And when we can actually be honest about our tenderness and our sense of loss. And I don’t know if I’m there yet with our house because I’m still very much in trauma and crisis, if I’m honest. But I say that and Michael had his graduation from his PhD in the middle of us not having walls. And we bought flowers and made delicious food and invited people into our home to be with us and to move forward setting the table that we wanted to set, celebrating in the way that we wanted to celebrate kind of in the midst of ruin, which I do think, again, I’m not saying the Allender Center, I want to be careful. I want to be clear. I’m not saying the Alanar Center podcast going to a bimonthly podcast is in the midst of ruin. So in my house right now, it very much literally felt like in the midst of ruin, we’ll set a table and we’ll feast. And in some ways that text with the narrowing that’s actually happening, maybe come to an even richer feast because we had a different kind of gratitude for people gathering with us and kind of joining us and not being bound by walls that didn’t have drywall and insulation. Nobody was like, “Oh wow, I am shocked. This is terrible.” It was just like our people showed up and they ate delicious food. And I felt like I was fighting to bring beauty into something that I would not have asked for and it would not have been how I would’ve most wanted to invite people into our home in a way we had been anticipating for five years thinking about Michael graduating. And so I do think that capacity to let go of what we had anticipated gave us an opportunity to dream about what could be even in less than favorable circumstances or situation. And so I do feel a kind of anticipation of the savoring that comes when you also still get to play and still have a lot of goodness and also have to hold things with a very open hand.
Dan: Again, important to underscore this isn’t ruined by any stretch. We need to take into account the reality like anyone with a budget that in order to proceed, there had to be cutbacks. And with a cutback, there is the anticipation of being able to do frankly, maybe more articulate and clear fundraising, but also an opportunity, as I said, to ponder and slow things down with part of the time that we’re going to have, that we’re not going to be doing the reading. I mean, both of us have never felt like we can interact with an author and not read their book. It’s just, I’m not going to depend on a publisher’s questions to ask. I just can’t think of anything more defrauding to an author than just here are the questions that your publisher told us to ask and we don’t really care about what you wrote, but thanks for being honest. So we do a lot of work and we’re going to have a bit of time, but part of that is meeting with our team and interacting with a redirection, what can we continue to do? What can we grow in our ability to do that that slow down gives us a frame to be able to accomplish. But I want to go back to the metaphor of your ruin in terms of how you did the party. I mean, in so many ways, the tear down of the walls actually reflected something of the chaos that the two of you and your whole family lived through as Michael was living in a full-time job while simultaneously doing a full-time student while being a full-time father and also a full-time husband and also just a remarkable human being. And then you having to tend to certain things that he was not tending to because how can you do all that? So there’s a sense of which the walls were very representative of the chaos that you lived in. Fair?
Rachael: No, that’s very fair.
Dan: And so in one sense though ironic, it was really a kind of telling the truth.
Rachael: Yeah, absolutely.
Dan: Well, this twice a month is kind of telling the truth. We need help. I hate asking for help, but there is a sense in which we do need help financially to be able to come back on full time. And there is something in that as we’re asking others to engage their lives. I just find it peculiar, but also part of the broad space, part of the open door to rescue and part of the delight of God to be in that place of being able to go… I said to Becky at one point, I think if we’re going to start asking for money, I’m going to replicate something of what a Christian leader some many moons ago did. And that is hide himself in his prayer closet or no, no, his prayer tower under the threat that God would kill him if they didn’t get the money. And she’s like, “Well, we don’t have a tower.” I said, “Well, you did require of me to clean the garage. I could put myself in the garage and threaten I can’t come out until…” But you didn’t find that helpful.
Rachael: No, that’s very manipulative and one we would call spiritually abusive.
Dan: Oh, so not even a good fundraising approach?
Rachael: I think you’re like, “I’ll come mow your lawn. One is maybe a little bit better.
Dan: I have not said that in so long, but it’s really true. I will cut your lawn. I won’t bring my own equipment, but I will cut your lawn. And I always tied it. I don’t know why just to 100,000, but at this point I would do it for less. One of the things that I would hope for from this engagement is not merely passing on information, but that whole question of how do we invite, how do we hold hospitality for the things that have brought us some disruption or disappointment? And I think that ability to hold and to invite, to sense that we actually make a place at our table so that we can be in conversation with our disappointment, but also with the sense that disappointment is what furrows the ground and that sense that cuts it open, but it also makes it more possible for new seed to be delivered, to be able to grow a new crop, a new fruit. And that’s, I think, where I’ve come into this process that we’re going to have to think through how we approach doing more of our podcasts. including someone suggested, not saying it’s going to happen, but suggested like we need to go on YouTube.
Rachael: That’s true. yeah, I mean, I feel like people would probably get a kick out of some of our nonverbal engagement. It would it would bring some clarity and and more sense of the conversation unfolding. So personally, as an elder millennial… I kind of think that’s a great idea.
Dan: Really? Really?
Rachael: No, I don’t I don’t love video but..
Dan: I have to tell you what what Becky’s response was. I she she literally said, you’ll have to be more aware of nose hair. And I’m like, do do you remember when we were doing a Narrative Focused Trauma Care weekend? Yeah, and…
Rachael: Yes I do. And you had a booger. Yes.
Dan: and I’m like, my God. I mean, I don’t think I look particularly great, I don’t think I look bad, but the idea of having somebody have to look at me through the process of doing this podcast.
Rachael: Yeah.
Dan: It’s an idea. But there are so many other ways that we long to be able to engage you as our audience and to invite you to really the ultimate core theme of what we’re about. And that is the work of redemption is wilder, stranger, more compelling than most of us have really allowed it to be. And that invitation into the realities of living in a fallen world where at times you don’t know where you are or where you’re meant to go, yet actually having some core conviction of he really has put us into a spacious world, one in which he intends because of the resurrection to rescue. And in that it is a reflection of his delight. So we are grateful to you as an audience that we have experienced your delight and in so many ways, the benefit that we have been able to participate in with you, for you, but also for ourselves. So with this change, we will be here a tad less, but deep dreaming of what is to come.
Rachael: May it be so.