Ending a Mission Well

We spend a lot of time preparing for big moments: years of school, months of planning a wedding, or working toward a major event or big trip. But how often do we think about what happens after?

Dan recently came home from some significant events and found himself living that question in real time. In this conversation with Rachael, they explore the process of extraction—the vulnerable, often overlooked period after a season of intense effort comes to an end. 

What does our body, soul, and spirit need when the adrenaline wears off? How do we make room for grief, celebration, rest, and savoring? And how might exhaustion leave us more vulnerable to accusation, isolation, or spiritual warfare?

If you’re coming down from something big—or have one on the horizon—this conversation offers a chance to slow down and consider what it might look like to care for yourself well on the other side.

About the Allender Center Podcast:

For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth.

At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology.

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Episode Transcript

Rachael: I believe what we’re planning to talk about today is what happens when we come to the end of a mission. We can define more what that means, or come to the end of something we’ve labored, we’ve birthed, or we’ve co-created, and we don’t end well. Or what does it look like or possibly could look like to end a mission well? So like most things Dan and I engage when we’re talking about our real life experience and trying to put thoughts to it, this’ll probably meet somewhere in the messy middle of ending a mission well or not ending a mission well. Is that a good enough introduction, Dan?

Dan: Look, it’s wonderful. It’s like how do you function with brain fugue because you’ve been engaged in something that you’ve either prepared for and worked toward for a long season and then it’s come to an end, or you’ve had some event. So indeed, we’re talking actually about extraction, which is in the world that I’m more familiar with working with some folks in the military. You know, a mission, it has three core parts: preparation, the actual execution of the mission, and then how you move out of it. And the SEALs and others would say the most dangerous part is extraction. Obviously, there’s injury sometimes in preparation, there’s obviously harm that can come during the mission itself but it’s when you’re tired, when you’ve finished something, how you depart from it within a twenty-four to seventy-two hour period of time, I think is a really significant discussion. And frankly, even though I have this category in mind, I think too often I don’t think about it. And as a result, I’m watching good friends who, one in particular, just finished a significant event that had been planned for almost a year, and that’s the wedding of one of their children. And the aftermath of the first week or two after while afterwards they were a wreck and they weren’t prepared for it. And I think most of us know that whether it’s an event you’ve been planning for a long time, like a wedding or a family reunion or a vacation. I think that’s crazy, but it’s true. Like something you’re really looking forward to. And then you have the event, it ends. Oftentimes there’s unprepared disaster. But I’m also thinking about those folks who’ve written a book or done a dissertation or, know anyone like that?

Rachael: I might be married to one.

Dan: Well, in that sense, you are one. But I think the longer you’ve got a mission engagement is the longer the act extraction is. So certain events like Becky and I just finished a few days ago a really wonderful event in Sonoma that a dear friend, Beth Hamilton, organized for us with 15 couples. It was just, we had a beautiful time. Finished, and the day after then was involved in shooting a documentary for Curtis Chang, who I just absolutely love his life and work. And he’s doing a documentary on his book on anxiety and had the privilege of being part of creating a documentary on his behalf. I had so much fun. And now I am in a cortisol dump of, my brain is not working. So you’re gonna need to do a little bit more work here. Organize me.

Rachael: Well, it sounds like what you’re putting some words to is that even though you do know that there has to be some intentional planning around the end. I mean, I will just say as a woman the most clear sense to me of like what we’re talking about as well is like a postpartum period. 

Rachael: Where there’s been l there’s been growing and attending and anticipating and preparing and and then there’s a labor and then often for many women like the experience  directly after giving birth. Yes, there’s a euphoria, there’s like a bonding and oxytocin, but there’s the biggest crash of progesterone and estrogen that you will probably ever experience in your life in a short amount of time happens after labor. And so there’s a huge letdown physically and emotionally. And in many ways, that’s what’s mirrored when we come to the conclusion of something we’ve either been laboring and co-creating toward or anticipating. So yes, you’re putting words to that. But I was just thinking about like you, you have the knowledge that there has to be intentionality and preparation. And I think in some ways it’s because we don’t often think of certain things as, as having and bearing the weight of good, beautiful labor. And so I guess my first question to you would be what happened? Was it just the distraction and busyness of the season that you that you missed in some ways, and not in a shameful way, but that you didn’t anticipate how you would feel today in the wake of these two very beautiful, offerings and experiences that you’ve had.

Dan: I’m I just bluntly said I’m so much better offering others what I seem to fail to provide for myself. But you know,

Rachael: Mm. Aren’t we all? Aren’t we all? 

Dan: And I think the the reality of being able to step back and to go, can I honor a very busy period, which I chose and knew it would be, but now I’ve got several days that allow a better movement into what could be a better extraction. So knowing that you need to extract is the beginning, but then planning for it and actually creating the time and the frame for that extraction to occur. Otherwise, look, you’re gonna be weary and exhausted, and therefore much more susceptible to like, just your left frontal lobe is not working as it could, and therefore you’re going to be making decisions that just aren’t built with the greatest amount of thought. But so I think for us, one of the things coming off two events back to back that were so fun was the grief of letting go.

Rachael: Yeah.

Dan: And yet the result being, we really didn’t celebrate. And I’m not particularly good at celebration. I’m much better simply moving forward. To stop and celebrate means you have failed to progress in movement forward. You’re looking back and holding it in the present. And so that was one of the first things Becky said was, Tonight we’re going to have a meal where we’re not having to cook, we’re not having to clean up, but is so delightful that it becomes the symbol of the banquet that we’ve actually been part of. And I’m like, hamburgers. She’s like, No. Right there is another extraction issue. We’re a little more tense with one another in that more fragile, irritable, and she’s like, are we gonna fight over how we celebrate? Like if you really want a hamburger, go for it. But I’m gonna go to another restaurant. And I’m like, okay.

Rachael: Well, I want to stop and put some words to like what you named. Like you’re far better at offering this to other people and you are to yourself. And I think in some ways, yeah, because I think part of our planning has to be acknowledging this isn’t something I can do on my own. because of the very nature of what I’m gonna be weary and exhausted. I’m gonna have I’m gonna be messy. I’m gonna have more, I’m gonna have more cortisol, less dopamine. You know, like I’m gonna feel some of the loss and the grief. And what does it mean to have community that helps create and helps hold, even if it’s a spouse who’s in it with you or a friend? So I actually feel really privileged to be with you today in this space to, to help slow down and find language and to bear witness to because I think you actually have a deep desire to celebrate. And I feel like it’s less like, you’re not good at celebrating, and more like what many of us could feel. We haven’t been celebrated well. So when you don’t have the neural pathways to know what that could look like or feel like, it feels way too risky to like hope for that or long for that. So I can bless and understand how a hamburger would feel safer than like a meal that you can’t, you don’t have the safety and certainty that it’ll actually feel like celebration or that you have the space for the grief and the loss that comes with the celebration. Cause to celebrate is to acknowledge an ending, right? It is to say like, this thing is completed. Yeah.

Dan: Right, exactly, exactly. And and the hamburger is literally five minutes away. And the Italian meal that my wife is preferring for celebration is about a fourteen minute drive. And right there, I’m like, are you out of your freaking mind that a nine minute difference would be something that binds your decision and it, what it feels like in extraction is every detail feels heavy.

Rachael: Yeah.

Dan: And to then create a process by which you go, I’ve left so much undone. I’ve so many emails I’ve not responded to. And one this morning was: I wrote you several days ago on a really important matter. I really am disappointed that you haven’t responded. And I felt defensive, but I also felt so disappointed in myself for not somehow finding the energy to be able to just go, I can’t respond right now. I will. And that process of, I think it’s the period I’m most open to accusation. My own, others, but ultimately from the kingdom of darkness. And I think knowing that doesn’t help resolve it by any stretch. But what it does is it begins to create the potential for latitude. Like what I need over the next several days is more space to come back to myself, to allow my body to be restored by rest, by good nourishment, by play. And in that process, to say no to the things I need to do, which I haven’t done because of what I did. All that to say it means more disruption instead of being able to return to quote unquote the normal.

Rachael: Absolutely. And I think again, I’m not sure how we intention that without the help of others. Like to disrupt the disruption and so to speak. And I don’t know about you, but I find in these periods is often when I get it’s like in the letdown I’ll get sick or as you’ve already put words to certainly. I mean, I feel like at the end of every certificate weekend that Michael and I have participated in, whether he’s doing it primarily and I’m holding down the house or I’m doing it and he’s got it’s like at the end of every single one NFTC, like the Narrative Focused Trauma Care trainings, we have some ridiculous, contemptuous conflict that’s like we have to, we have to disrupt ourselves and be like, okay, let’s okay, let’s locate ourselves. We’re in a period of extraction. And here’s all these things that are going on. And usually in the midst of that, we don’t have the resources we need to like resolve the tension, so to speak, but we sometimes, not all the time, sometimes find the wisdom to be like, let’s slow down. Let’s take a step back. What else might we need in this moment that we’re not actually like thinking about or paying attention to? And I, it makes me think about. You know, you and Becky very graciously and generously pulled us aside. Almost a year ago when we saw you in Seattle, Michael was I think, yeah, going to be defending his dissertation a week later. And, you know, you, I think the first question was, so like, how are you guys thinking about this season? You know, you’ve been he’s been in this process. You’ve together been in this process for five years. Like this is a significant ending of a lot of labor. How are  you thinking about this season? And I think, you know, our answers were like, we’re just so excited to have so much more space and like time to connect. And there’s all these projects we’ve kind of been on putting on hold. And you and Becky just said, okay, let’s slow down and talk about again what some of the issues and realities we’re putting language to. Exhaustion that comes, susceptibility to you know, a lot of different things, the grief and the loss and the need to celebrate well. The accusations of like you didn’t do enough or look at all that went awry while you were attending to this other thing. The loneliness, the loss of purpose, just so many things. The you know a return to addictions that we try to like get that dopamine back from. And again also like, and a category that I think was really helpful, and maybe we could put some more words to is just and the spiritual warfare of that period of extraction. And you gave us language for like a period of extraction. And there was a part of me, and you didn’t stop there. We’ll talk about like, therefore, what are some of the things we need? Because you gave us really good advice on how we should be thinking about not just like the week after he completed his dissertation, but like you said like several months. You know, I think you said like four to six months, which again, I’m not gonna lie, there was a part of me that was like, this is kind of extreme. Like, I don’t know, like, should we be this concerned? Four to six months, that’s a really long time, you know. Like, do we really need that much time? And there was another part of me that just felt a deep sense of gratitude that it felt like such love and care. even if it was inviting us to some reality that felt like, well, that feels depressing. Like that feels sad. Like, yeah, can we just celebrate and go on vacation and call it a day, you know. But there was also something that felt a lot like care and gave us some tools and frameworks to be intentional about the upcoming season in a way that as we are now still in the midst of like a remediation project, a mold remediation project, and a lot of other people in our home. And, you know, the fall, this past fall held so much intensity, a lot of good and a lot of hard. I think without some of the kind of frameworks you gave us to think about this season, we would have been like swept under the swell, so to speak. Or we would have been caught so off guard, it would have taken us so much longer to like catch our breath or to like orient ourselves to what was happening. So I don’t know if there’s more that you would want to put to what are some of the issues we face in extraction or if we should move toward how then do we think about these these seasons?

Dan: Yeah it just, to come back to say, you know, I think book projects for me, because I don’t write quickly and it takes oftentimes from the start of the thought of a book to its real final completion can be two years, three years. And I.. Becky just has been so gracious to say, you know, some of the worst times in our marriage have been those moments when I’ve finished a major project. And for all the reasons that we’ve already put words to, because I, what do I do now that I don’t have this to do? And even that sense for anyone who’s done ministry, like I put a lot of time into it. What real good Is there. So the existential, the somatic, the relational, and the spiritual reality that because, and I’m using the word tired, but I hope y’all hear it’s way more than just I need a good night or two of sleep. It’s your body, soul, and being is more susceptible to accusation. And I think if there’s one major sentence to be held. It’s if you can stand against accusation during these periods, even if you don’t take as much rest as you could or should, or you don’t you return too quickly to getting email done and doing the tasks that you put aside, there are countless ways to make extraction kinder. But if at least you have the shield up against the inevitable internal and external accusations. You will handle the ending with far more aplomb and certainly with far more goodness than might be there normally. So I think even having this time to do this today, part of the reason I wanted to video do this today was just to get myself back and going, do I believe any of this? Am I actually gonna do any of this? And I think the answer, because I’ve been talking about it, particularly on the walk with Becky today, it’s like we began creating a plan. There was a little bit of a plan, but it’s more like even this discussion of a 14-minute Italian drive food, five-minute hamburger. Okay, we’re gonna get Italian food tonight. Now, the other factors are beginning to say, do you allow yourself to not just go fallow, which you do need, and you need to focus on your body? And can we actually hold what happened? That brought us to this point of extraction with more focus. And so one of the things Becky said was, I want to hear you recount the things when we were speaking that you liked of what I said. And I’m like, that will be fun. Because there were a bunch of things that just floored me and made me laugh. She is really a wild woman.

Rachael: That is this is true, yes.

Dan: So the the beginning of that conversation of beginning to talk about what we did at the marriage conference. And then she said, I wasn’t there at the taping for this part of the documentary that you did. I want to hear some of the things you spoke about. And I’m like, I don’t know, I don’t want to do that. She’s like, no, we’re going to do it because part of what it means to extract is not just move on, but to come back and savor. And we had another podcast with Chinwé Williams, who used that word savor with regard to the intersection. Any moment that goes well, will you let yourself hold it and more than hold it, like taste it again. To me, that was one of the important things about a wedding or a major work like what you and Michael did to see him through the dissertation. So how did you all savor?

Rachael: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, in some ways it’s kind of in a season of savoring because he as you know, like when you defend a dissertation, there is and your committee says, Yes, you are considered a doctor. so we had that initial thing, but he didn’t walk for graduation until May 9th. So it was like a season of kind of these different moments of savoring with a lot of intentionality. But one of the first things we did, well, Evie and I had a balloon shower for dad, which she referred to at the time Dr. Dad, which was I just thought was so poignant, right? Because it’s like he became I mean he was already a dad to two beautiful boys, but he became a girl dad in the midst of PhD work. And so he really was like Dr. Dad. I mean he was studying and waking up to held a baby. So we showered Dr. Dad with balloons that we poured from our second floor and we had a banner and we immediately popped some champagne. And so there was like this immediate moment. We our whole family went to a delicious Italian dinner that night at like a reservation only restaurant. And we did some of that work of like, what are some of the things you’re most proud of of the past five years? You know, what was some of the hardest? We just spent, we made time for him to reflect. And then once his dissertation kind of got like fully edited into whatever, this is the stuff I don’t fully understand, but when it became like edited by the copy editor, that it like went into like the official archives of Eastern University, we had like another moment of like, okay, this is a big celebration. And then we got to have a beautiful graduation weekend celebration, Michael’s family came into town. We did lots of savoring and celebrating. We had a graduation party in our home that was deconstructed. It didn’t have a wall. So I, you know, if anything, I just feel like that to me, I actually love celebrating other people. So that has actually been a more natural thing we’ve done in our home. I think making space for the grief and the loss of that work, knowing you can always do more, there’s always more you want to do. the sense of like he’s so proud and excited to have completed this. This is a huge goal of his life to do before 50. But then on the same breath, like that feeling of like this is meaningless. Like, I invested all this time and it’s very meaningful, and it’s also simultaneously meaningless. So I just think all of those things together and then the exhaustion. and I think it’s the difference of like he ended this season of like doing this thing at the same time we are launching teenagers who are very active and sending a toddler to preschool. So in some ways, Dr. Dad, it’s that beautiful thing of like you are exhausted and you’re having a letdown. It’s like a postpartum mom who already has two toddlers. You know, it’s like and you have to keep like there is no period of like let the ground go fallow. Now you could let your brain go fallow. You can let the like ceasing of study go fallow. So that’s not that we couldn’t find a sense of like how do we protect time and space. And you know, one of the things you and Becky said to us was for the next four to six months, you need to go really slow. You need to move slow. And your tendency is going to be to go fast because it’s going to feel like all this space and time just opened up. But you’re gonna need to assess that there has been some loss even in the midst of this district. What does it cost your family? Like, what does it cost your marriage? What are some things you won’t be able to get back, but you could build more? So you said like you’re gonna need to have a period of saying no to things when you’re gonna want to be like, and now we’re ready to say yes. And that there was something in us that went, that actually feels a lot better. Like to actually acknowledge we need to move really slow into the fall season. And it’s okay to say no to certain things that like, you know, I think we had some invitations in our faith community to like step into more leadership or different things with my work at the Allener Center, different invitations where it just like no, the most honoring thing right now, even though logistically we do have more space and time, is to just move a little more slow. And to savor that this was a significant season and there’s still more to savor that we’re like we get to discover as time unfolds before we’re just moving on to the next project or the next kind of big goal for our family. A lot of that savoring for us has been enjoying these seasons of our kids’ lives that feel like they’re fleeting and feel like they’re really fluid, and just trying to enjoy the moments. And I’ll be honest, in the midst of the spiritual warfare and all that we’ve put language to that has felt very real, that has been hard won. The savoring has been really hard won. And it has felt like playful defiance, you know, to be like, okay, like I said, our whole front of our house doesn’t have walls on the inside because of mold remediation. But we’re still gonna have this graduation party and it’s gonna be beautiful. And people are gonna come and they’re probably not even gonna notice that we don’t have like drywall on that wall because they’re not here to like they’re here to do this other thing. So there have been some very literal moments of that feeling of like all is not well in the way we would most want it to be well, and there is still celebration to happen. And in some ways, this is a part of being human that we are quite often called to seasons where joy and sorrow or exhaustion and celebration kind of coexist. And I’m just more convinced than ever we cannot do that without community. Like we can’t do it in and of ourselves or even in and of our marriages or our family units or, you know, whatever.

Dan: Well, as Becky will say quite often, you just live in your head. You just live sort of rambling around in that vacuous twelve pounds up there. And the reality is there’s so much grief for me in any ending. And part of that is it was so good, and now it’s over. And on the other hand, I was exhausted and I’m glad it’s over. But on the other hand, It isn’t what I wanted it to be. We could have done so much of this, that, or the other, and yet it also bore so much goodness, and yet it has no meaning. And yet it is such a rich meaning. And the inherent apparent contradictions just feel like literally feeling like you’re in the washing machine going up and down and up and down.

And in that process, if you’re not prepared for that, you you’re going to, as you put it so well earlier, you’re just going to push forward, or you’re going to give in, as I’m more apt to do, to the multitude of addictions I seem to have, including getting a book and reading for six or seven hours, which actually is really restful and really sweet and enjoyable. The very things that I might do that feel honorably and good to have good care can also have that edge of I don’t want to feel, don’t want to hold all of what the end of this wedding, the end of this book, the end of this vacation brings. So coming back into this to be able to say, prayer has become one of the central ways of being able before, during, and after to attune not just to what’s being thought and felt, but actually bringing this into the spiritual realm of what I hold to be the place that my body and soul most are open to hearing from Jesus. And in that process, commendation is not easy to hear. I’m much more comfortable with if I could force Jesus to sort of like, let’s go through what could have been better. Here’s the critique, here are three things we can do differently the next time we do X, Y, or Z. And again, the sweetness of commendation, of him delighting in well, in this case, in what my wife said, but also how I interacted with my wife and how working together brings such joy. And to hear his commendation of these are the precious thoughts I have of you, I think is one of the it’s not ameliorating the the exhaustion. But it gives context to be able to hold it with greater honor. Have you found that to be true?

Rachael: Oh my goodness. Yes. This is kind of a, well, I’m not gonna say cheesy, but I’m actually thinking to a very literal postpartum moment I had with Jesus. And I feel like I’ve experienced this in some of these like ending of mission moments where I was nursing and my daughter is just still to this… she just wants much. That’s how she puts it, you know, if you give her a glass of orange, just she’ll say, I want much, which is her way of saying, I want more. I want much. You know, we’re like, We know, you want so much. It’s so beautiful. And I just felt that even in her little body. Like I just like, she wanted much. And of course I was glad to give that to her. And I just felt Jesus say, like, this feeling you have as a mother of like, Of course, I want to give this to you. And there’s more than enough for you. Imagine how I feel towards you. So, but I think a common refrain I often hear from Jesus, and I’ll be honest, I feel like a lot of endings of significant labor have been very lonely. And I have often felt very unseen, or have felt the lack of gratitude or the lack of capacity for the system to slow down because there’s always the tyranny of the now. But I’ve often heard Jesus loud and clear say, I’m so delighted in you. Like, well done. I see you. Like I see the, in some ways, like the sincerity and faithfulness of your labor to bring something good and beautiful, but to do it with people you love and how meaningful that is to you. I see you. I see your heart. I made you this way. I love this about you. So yeah, I think without that, and also an acknowledgement, I will often hear from the spirit, and I see what this has cost. Like this has been costly. So let this be a season of restoration. Like you don’t have to earn the restoration. Like it’s not a cause and effect, but like let this be a season of restoration. And I think without those sweet moments with the spirit, I would probably just power through and kind of, and I do sometimes and have a lot more scars, a lot more hardening, and probably claim it as like resilience. But that’s probably more my tendency is like I’m scrappy, I can do a lot, I don’t need much in return. And I’ve needed that in many ways, but I’m grateful for the invitation to slow down, to be in community, to receive honor, to give honor, to reflect, on and on and on.

Dan: Indeed. And I think one of the elements for us of prayer is again holding back to the word savoring, savoring something of the process. What happened to get us to this spot? What did we do to do the labor of creating the plan or imagining how the event might go? And then again, anyone who’s done something that fits into this word mission knows that it’s like trying to juggle spinning plates while simultaneously fixing a fine meal. And you’re just like you, it’s beyond my capacity. And yet somehow we were able to engage it. So this section of savoring with gratitude, but also aware that the extremity of the process, even though I did it, I didn’t. I was joined, and joined, you know, for things like our Narrative Focused Trauma Care, joined by so many good colleagues that allow us to be able to offer a kind of engagement with the human heart that I think is pretty rare in our world. But I feel my exhaustion. I don’t know how to feel yours. And in that, there has to be that communal reflection on what brought us to the point that we’re at. And I think again, we don’t, I don’t, we don’t take the time to sit back and go, talk to me about what this costs you. and that’s not self-absorption, that’s the opportunity to join others in significant gratitude. And I’m I’m I’m just finding that even the 45 minute walk prior to this podcast, Becky has set certain standards and structures of I want to sit on the porch and look at the photos that we took at the event in Sonoma. And I’m like, okay. And she’s like, no, no, no, not, not, here’s a photo. Flip it over to the next one, to the next one. Take the time to begin to talk about the photo, who’s in it, the people that were there, the conversations that you had. And already, even saying it again now, I can feel something in me going, oh, but you got to get to those emails. Because you’ve got disappointed people who want something from you. And again, I don’t feel so much pressure. I feel like privilege. And yet I have to say no to the privilege, which feels much harder than saying no to mere pressure. 

Rachael: Absolutely. And as you were talking, I was thinking that Michael is really good at asking and like inviting some of these savoring reflective spaces. And I’ll often feel very resistant to them. So I’m actually like making some connections of like, this is what he’s inviting me to. Like he’ll ask something like, What surprised you the most? Or like, what was the most fun thing about what you did? Or what are you the most proud of? Or you know, and I’ll kind of be like, I have to think some more. I don’t know, I don’t want to think about it. But often when I feel agitation and anger, I know that there is grief below the surface that I don’t have the language for or the courage to necessarily like lean into. And so sometimes I can only get to the delight when there’s space and acknowledgement of like, the delight is so deeply connected with an ending that it was really delightful.

And it’s fraught, like you said, right? Like it’s also complex. Maybe I wanted to do more, or there’s more to do, or it was so sweet to work with that group of people. And I’m really sad that that co-labour has come to an end in the way that it was. And so I know for myself that getting to the delight is really important, and that usually the path I have to take to get there is to acknowledge to even feel delight or name delight is to also like feel some grief. And the grief is not a bad thing. And it often expands my heart, opens the door for me to name the delight, and invites some care and tending that I’m also very resistant to.

Dan: Yeah, I think that’s, we can end with that because it’s really brilliant. And the idea that grief actually opens more space in your heart for delight. I think that’s what I will take from our time. yeah, I I will need more time today to let go. and yeah, to to allow my heart to be a bit more fallow, but far more to let my heart let go in the grief to be able to eat a really good bolognese tonight.

Rachael: May it be so.